Pro 2-handed gate observation

[Than_Bogan]

Maybe everybody else already knew this, but:

 

I was watching Nate Smith and the other 2-handed gaters in the Pro-Am, and I was surprised to see how early they pull out. All of the 2-handed folks, and maybe Nate most of all, pull out *well* before the front of the boat hits the 55s. I'd say about a full boat length away. Maybe even a little more.

 

As I've recently been trying to figure out how to get higher on the gate, I've found that I have to pull out well before the boat hits the greens, and I was thinking I was doing something strange and possibly wrong. But it looks like the pros do the same.

 

I guess I didn't realize this because our "local pro" is Jamie Beauchesne and he uses a 1-handed gate, is LFF, and has that snow-skier turning style. All of these combine to where he pulls out really late -- almost when HE is reaching the greens.

 

But, apparently, for a 2-handed gate with glide, the "right" place to pull out is right about where I have been recently, and is quite a bit before the front of the boat hits the greens.

 

P.S. Using this gate I had a great -38 going before turning into The Chokemeister with a huge overturn at 4. Curse you, I've-got-this Syndrome!

[jimbrake]

I have gone back to a 2-handed gate after a decade with the 1-handed. I have to begin my pull out a good boat length before the boat hits the 55s.

[jimbrake]

I have gone back to a 2-handed gate after a decade with the 1-handed. I have to begin my pull out a good boat length before the boat hits the 55s.

[PurdueSkier]

Boat speed, line length, how aggresive you pull out, and ski set up all impact when you need to pull out. I use a 2 handed gate. At 36 MPH and 15 - 28 off, I pull out just before the boat hits the 55s. The key is that you must get wide enough (for me I line up with 2,4,6), and then you must have the right amount of glide/deacceleration. For me, if I have too much speed (pulled out too late), I have a really fast turn in with too much speed through the gates and into 1. If I have too little speed (I pulled out too early), I will get pulled in behind the boat which will make me narrow through the gates and to 1 ball.

[PurdueSkier]

Boat speed, line length, how aggresive you pull out, and ski set up all impact when you need to pull out. I use a 2 handed gate. At 36 MPH and 15 - 28 off, I pull out just before the boat hits the 55s. The key is that you must get wide enough (for me I line up with 2,4,6), and then you must have the right amount of glide/deacceleration. For me, if I have too much speed (pulled out too late), I have a really fast turn in with too much speed through the gates and into 1. If I have too little speed (I pulled out too early), I will get pulled in behind the boat which will make me narrow through the gates and to 1 ball.

[Wish]

Have a friend (European coach) that's been getting me to do the same. Pull out early...yes.. but that doesn't mean to kill it getting to your glide and wide on the boat. Moving out to the glide is more, much more, controlled. Almost gradual. Light on the line. I was doing alot of extra body movements and was getting low to the water and not standing tall. So essentially it takes more time and distance to accomplish this. Shorter glide as well. He also recommended as soon as I start pulling out for the glide I start looking at the gates. And basically not take my eyes off them. Took some getting used to as my shoulders were following my head and not staying somewhat square down course but ultimately helped.

[Wish]

Have a friend (European coach) that's been getting me to do the same. Pull out early...yes.. but that doesn't mean to kill it getting to your glide and wide on the boat. Moving out to the glide is more, much more, controlled. Almost gradual. Light on the line. I was doing alot of extra body movements and was getting low to the water and not standing tall. So essentially it takes more time and distance to accomplish this. Shorter glide as well. He also recommended as soon as I start pulling out for the glide I start looking at the gates. And basically not take my eyes off them. Took some getting used to as my shoulders were following my head and not staying somewhat square down course but ultimately helped.

[6balls]

Agree on pull out for 2 handed just before nose in the greens. That's what I use now at 34 mph. I used to do a 1 handed as a 36 mph skier, and pulled out with my ski at the greens.

[6balls]

Agree on pull out for 2 handed just before nose in the greens. That's what I use now at 34 mph. I used to do a 1 handed as a 36 mph skier, and pulled out with my ski at the greens.

[Razorskier1]

I am with OB here. I pull out a boat length before and do it nice and light, but longer, also in an attempt to set up the right position, but also to keep ZO from knowing I'm there. More of a long, easy lean out, followed by a shorter glide, then roll into the gate. As an aside to that comment, I skied two sets this morning with quite a few (14) 35 off passes and quite a few (8) shots at -38 on my first set. Having watched some of the Diablo videos, I decided to alter the gate turn in point slightly. First set, I turned in when the nose of the boat was about 6 feet from entering the gates. That was OK, but not right. I was going too much at the one ball, and the boat didn't lift me up and kick me off the second wake. Frustrating as I was at the 5 ball several times but didn't run -38. Finished the set with 4 more 35s. Second set went back to my normal mindset, which is to turn in when the boat is in the gate. Ahhh . . . now I had the correct angle such that I could lean easy, feel the boat pick me up and kick me out, and create space between me and the one as I entered the edge change. Golden. Unfortunately I didn't have the energy for more -38, so I ran ten more 35s that way and called it a morning. My learning -- the 'correct' angle matters at the turn in -- whatever that is for each of us.

[Chef23]

Than, I am not as good as you but I will chip in here anyway and I ski LFF and I believe you are RFF but regardless I think like Razor and OB. I pull out when the nose of the boat is about to hit the right hand 55. I try to be real light on the pull out because I don't want to get gassed by the boat on the pull out. I start my turn in at about the same time and try to make sure I let the ski turn in then get the good angle and hold it. At the gates I try not to kill the boat but set the good angle and hold it.

 

This summer Matt (my 12 year old) skied with Wade Cox and Wade has Matt working on a one handed gate. Wade said that the one handed gate is better for LFF skiers because it helps them get better angle. For RFF skiers Wade said the two handed gate is fine because that is their good pull anyway.

 

I may dabble with the one handed gate next summer when I am healthy and see how it works. Frankly I would do it as much so that I can try to coach Matt on it as for my own skiing but I figure it is worth trying.

[mac]

Great tips/visuals for pulling out and starting your turn in, but what speed are you trying to achieve as you are gliding prior to and at your turn in...even with the boat's speed, slowing down/gliding back a little or faster than the boat? Seems when I get "high" on the boat, I am slowing down before I reach my visual turn in point; hence, not high on the boat anymore. Not sure that is right? tks, mac

[Wish]

I think that's where standing tall in the pull out and doing so in a light gradual fashion keeps the speed of the glide, which then becomes shorter, under control. I find myself matching the boat speed then a gradual light turn in. Load comes about a half a ski length before the first wake and is held to center of wakes. Then as, Razor says, that little bump in speed kicks you out wide and early. Resulting in less hectic ball one. Basically if you hit the pull out hard and heavy, it will take less time to get at that high point and cause a longer and less speed contoled glide. If the earlier pull out is light but the goal is that same high point, it will take longer to get to that point and glide will be shorter and far more in control, your control.

[6balls]

If you want to be near boat speed at turn in, your window is much bigger on a light sustained pull out and glide. In heavy pull out and glide, your speed over shoots and then the deceleration is relatively rapid as well. Given the more dramatic change in speed the window for turn in is small.

[Wish]

@6balls

 

Well said

 

Crap I hate when someone else can say it in far less words. Note to self.... Shut up.

[Texas6]

I think there is truth in both answers. A one handed gate requires a later pull-out and allows width with a short pull out by design. Two handed gate speed is easiest to moderate through a slower more controlled pull-out. But optimally a perfect gate is achieved with either approach when the skier doesn't pick up the majority of the load from the boat until they are at or just before the whitewater.

[ForrestGump]

We skied with Chad Scott a couple of days this week. He had Charles, who runs into 41 at 36 start to move his pullout point to where the boat nose was at the 55s so that he cut his glide down and turned in with more speed. Charles ran some of the easiest 39s I've seen from him afterwards. By turning in with more speed, it kept the average speed up throughout the entire pass. Chad's thought was that the turnin should be based on speed and not location. If you are not matched with the boat speed as you turn in, then the speed swing is greater.

[scuppers]

These are great posts! Really good stuff to work on.

[Razorskier1]

Speed at turn in is a tricky thing, and perhaps the most difficult part of the course to replicate consistently. As ShaneH notes, I have found that when I do it perfect, I am actually turning in from a faster speed and, as a result, I feel like I work less hard and generate less load in the gate. Done correctly, you are light on the line, wide and early with a tight line at one. To make this work, I find I need to be sure to be gliding outbound, not straight down course with the boat. If I have speed and am gliding straight downcourse, then I turn into slack. So what I like ideally is to be gliding outbound, standing tall (like OB), and with my handle low and with slight handle pressure (because I am on the outside edge). Then I can turn in with a tight line and already have speed enough to just stay light. Wish I could do that right more than I do!!! Gates are just an odd animal. Sometimes I go days and days where they feel totally right and natural and I think I've finally got it dialed in for good. Then I go for days not being able to find the right mix again. What a sport!

[Than_Bogan]

It's slightly ridiculous how complex the gates are. When I wrote out my notes for next year, I had a crazy-long list of points to try to remember about the gate. And that didn't even include some of the good insights above.

 

But of course the gates set up everything that will follow, so I guess it's not THAT surprising that so much of the technique of the sport is packed into that short period.

[Razorskier1]

Skied with Jodi Fisher 2 years ago with my brother, my son, and a friend. We spent 2.5 days skiing with Jodi and the ONLY thing he coached was the gate. When I was in the boat with him I asked about his strategy. He said his goal was to fix one thing that would take care of fixing a multitude of other problems. The gate is at the top of that pyramid. Fix the gate and all of the sudden the one ball is fixed, which translates all the way down the course. As I recall now (foggy), we spent an awful lot of time on (a) position on the ski -- hips square to the front, (b) getting higher on the boat -- he told me this every pass, even when I thought I was getting too high, he did not, ©, managing the amount of load and speed -- Jodi really wanted less load on the line. As a stronger guy, I don't always really know how my load compares to others. For example, one pass Jodi asked me what I thought my load was on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being highest. I told him maybe a 4-5. He just about fell out of the boat laughing. He said it was a more like a 15!

 

Over the last 10 years I have been trying to figure out the "art" of less load, and it truly is an art. Loading the line was easy -- I knew how to do it and could do it every time! Not loading the line requires far greater control of position, handle, etc, and is much more difficult to replicate consistently (for me). Nevertheless, I do it better every year, and it is both making me a better skier, and hopefully extending the years of my career!

[ktm300]

Light on the line ain't what I thought it meant for a long time. I was getting coaching from one of the lightest on the line technically correct 55k guys around. Like Razor, I was told that I was a 9/10 on the pulling hard scale and it was not meant as a complement. After practicing a lot at being "light", I rode in the boat with the coach skiing with a strain gauge hooked up to a laptop to track and record the load. 600lb + offside, 650+ onside. Light, to me, means in sync with the line and the boat. Take all the angle you want but at the hook up add nothing more to it. Just ride it to the other side. If you haven't check out the Wim Decree video on Schnitz site, do. Watch where and how he is picking up the line at the turn in. Just a timing thing. To be in sync and not outrun the inside hand or pickup the load too soon too wide, we have the match the speed of the boat. Since the turn in bleeds some speed, to match the speed of the boat, we need to be travelling just a touch faster than the boat at turn in and at the apex of every buoy. Once through this transition, let the angle create the load not pulling or leaning. In the West Coast video the loads at hook up for Terry Winter were over 700lb. I don't view this as "light". In sync? OK. The one hander for me eliminates that slight anxiety I always had with the longer glide gate. I could not trust myself with the longer glide and my mind was spinning up with the choices about when to go. With the one hander all is preordained by where I pull out. When I hit the top of the arch it is time to go; no choices to make. Jeff Rodgers told me to aim for the middle of the gates. This helped me stop stressing about trying to get close to the right hand ball which caused me all kinds of grief. If I have good speed and angle at turn in, the middle is just fine. If I don't, I could graze the right ball and it would still not be a good gate. Also, the one hander works better in the wind. If you are gliding a long time in the wind, you better be a good glider which I never was. The wind has less time to push on you with the quick out and in.

 

Now, after saying so much, I'll go watch that Mapple video of the no gate 39 to remind me that the gate isn't everything.

[Razorskier1]

ktm300 is right on. As I read it this phrase came to me "let the boat pull on you, don't pull on the boat". There is a certain level of load required to be in synch with the boat and to generate the right amount of speed. I used to say that what I wanted at turn in was to feel pressure in my hands, then nothing more. That seems to be about right for me. However, that doesn't translate to everyone I ski with, because many people didn't have my old over-pulling problem. For some people, like my son, I have to actually tell him to be more aggressive in the lean, not less. Otherwise he doesn't generate enough speed or angle to get the job done. I also agree on the gate. We all love the right gate ball, but if you do that with either the wrong angle, the wrong load, or the wrong speed, it still is a crap one ball. I shot through the middle of the gate today on a -38 start and it was my best one of the day because I had speed and angle right.

[ForrestGump]

Light on the line is dictated in a lot of ways by your work zone. When it's white water to white water, you are light on the boat no matter how aggressive you are. If it's just off the buoy to centerline, your going to be heavier on the line.

[Than_Bogan]

Continuing Shane's point, that's exactly being "heavy" on the line doesn't work when the rope is very short, because if you're trying to pull right off the buoy, there is nothing to pull on. The angle of the rope is so high that you can't generate any force in a useful direction. It's only in a small zone behind the boat where the rope angle is low enough to generate useful load.

[Klundell]

I switched back to the two handed gate at the beginning of this year and have had a lot of success with it. 36mph Right foot forward and I use the long pull out as well. I try to watch the right 55 ball and when I can't see it anymore I begin to pull out. I also switched the position from which I pull out. I used to pull out from just outside the trough now I pull out from just outside the wake. I find this helps me get a little wider on the boat.