Nate slow

[Cam]

Not up to Horton's standard but at least it is viewable, one comment though Nate at quarter speed looks faster than me at normal speed at 34mph.

[boarditup]

Perfectly stacked body position at the finish of of the turn....

[mrpreuss]

 

At one time I was lucky enough to have a skier who ran 41 in a pro event tell me the truth many skiers try to disprove.

 

It looks so fast and hard because it is.

 

Angle is a by-product of speed.

 

You must travel further in the same amount of time as the rope gets shorter.

 

There was a long talk about feet per second traveled at 36 mph skier speed VS 70 mph skier speed.

 

This video of a nearly impossible run answers the question of why does it get harder as the rope gets shorter.

 

[MattP]

@mrpreuss

How is angle a by-product of speed? The greater the angle that your ski has behind the boat the greater the speed you will create. I can have a ton of speed but no angle and I would go more down course because my cross course angle is shallower.

[Lieutenant Dan]

To have better angle requires higher speed in the direction (vector) perpendicular to the boat as the speed in the direction (vector) of the boat is always constant in the pulling zone (34 or 36 mph if you will). Perpendicular speed and angle thus go hand-in-hand. If you can generate greater speed in the perpedicular direction you can acheive greater angle. If you have greater speed in the perpendicular direction you can acheive more angle.

[mrpreuss]

Well stated Lieutenant Dan.

 

At that time I was running 38 at 34 mph and he was running 39 at 36 mph and winning pro events.

 

Other than asking questions and taking notes, I shut up and tried to understand what he was telling me.

 

If you improve you position over the ski in the transition/preturn, this will allow you to carry more speed.

[ForrestGump]

Anyone who says with zo you need to take it easy and not lean or get angle should watch that gate. Or Reginas.

[thompjs]

Shane, I think the issue with ZO is not to hit it hard early. Of course that is a relative thing. You need to build speed quickly from the outside but still in a progressive way.

[Than_Bogan]

@thompjs Totally agree on that. Progressive speed building was always a good idea, but definitely seems even more important in the ZO era.

[thompjs]

Back in the hand drive days, with 240hp carb boats without secondaries engaged you could bite off a bit more than today and get away with it.

[Dirt]

Shane, I agree with you. The whole light on the line thing does not make sense to me

[Darth]

The force is strong with this one.

[PatM]

What I saw in this video that stands out to me is the progression to the gate. Even in slowmo you can tell he progresses patiently into the gate and is at his hardest (and its aggressive) pull at the left hand gate.

[skibug]

I have it on good authority that Nate stated more than once,

 

I am pulling my guts out and trying to get across course as fast as I can.

[skibug]

Depends if you are behind in the course or not....i prefer progressive; but, don't always have that luxury.

[mrpreuss]

 

 

I LOVE this video and the comments.......

 

 

[skibug]

I am not late at the gate yet.....well maybe if my turn in is late I have to pull harder....I don't know, it just feels like when I let up on the intesity, I get behind. With that said, where you pull your guts out and for how long matters; but, whereever your work zone winds up (preferably at the completion of the turn through the second wake) you better be on it.

[thager]

Great Vid. Never looks like Nate even works hard. At 6' 190 lbs. pulling my guts out worked for me from wide with Perfect Pass. It did not work for me with ZO and has taken 2-3 years to get back to where I was TPB with PP. I pull as hard now but where it starts and ends has changed significantly. I can not scrap with ZO if I am behind period! If it matters I run mid 12.0m at girls speed.

[Razorskier1]

Hmmm. I'd love to see a load gauge on the line when Nate crosses the gate vs. what it looks like for each of us. It is very difficult to talk about load correctly without it, because what looks like "pulling like hell" for one guy, might be light work for another. With ZO I would say that I ski lighter on the line than I ever have in my lifetime. My goal is to "hide" from ZO - be light and don't let it kick my butt - at least not right at the turn in. Load does increase into the first wake for me, but then decreases pretty quickly.

 

Also, it seems that skiing is a bit like sailing (even though I don't sail). Pull the sail too tight and you generate load, but not speed. Set the angle to the wind correctly and you generate less load, more speed. Point being that there is an optimal angle/load combination that gets you to the right place at the right time at the right speed. Nate is awesome at making that happen.

 

All of that being said, I suspect that a load gauge would show that my load level, which I consider light, and Nate's, which is described as pulling his guts out, may not be markedly different.

[RichardDoane]

as a driver, you can tell a big difference when skiers pull in the middle, versus way outside the wakes, it's so much easier to keep the boat straight when the pull is centered, no matter what size skier is behind you

[Wish]

"hide from ZO". I like that.

[Than_Bogan]

@OB I agree and I also don't think that's been "the answer" for a really long time -- I'm not even certain it ever was.

 

But that style goes from "suboptimal" to "nearly impossible" with ZO.

[Gloersen]

Fully ascribing to the notion of “loading the line late”, “light on the line”, “hide from ZO”, “ski spray to spray”, etc., etc.; however the data suggests we max load a lot sooner than what we perceive as optimal.

 

How the load is initiated; with optimal velocity (speed & direction), how it is sustained (not getting high-sided, not giving it up prior to the 2nd wake), is critical.

 

Crushing the turn, coming off the buoy in some attempt to generate massive angle acutely (or during a direction change for the gates) is not the way to create sustainable load; optimal velocity is killed.

 

Naturally speed & direction (angle), the components of velocity, are inextricably linked, but the perception of speed creating angle merits focus. Attempting to use angle to create speed leads to unsustainable load, on the other hand, shifting the COM in the desired direction of travel efficiently generates speed yielding the sustainable angle sought.

 

Ramping up less acutely probably permits greater ability to sustain productive load through the 2nd wake, but suspect the upper stratum have mastered the technique of using speed through the direction change significantly more intensely while continuing to optimally load with proper handle control through the 2nd wake.

 

[Razorskier1]

I agree with the you Gloersen. Question for me is sustained productive angle and load. As someone who used to load hard after the ball, I know that if I do that I then lose angle to the boat almost immediately while also picking up speed. Of course, that sends me straight at the next ball with too much speed! However, if I come out of the ball softer and with less load/angle (call it "optimal", for lack of a better term), then I accelerate, build load, and even build a little bit of angle all the way to the first wake. In this case, I have more room ahead of the next ball, my speed seems more constant, and I am more in control of the handle.

[Klundell]

I'm glad there are a few more people out there that are not on the "light on the line" bandwagon. I've never understood the whole light on the line thing? I've been told that I appear to ski "light on the line" but I too am pulling my guts out all the time. I think the difference between light and heavy on the line is all about timing. Look at Nate's Two ball in this video compared to every other turn. He gets deep in the finish of the turn and ends up loading the line early and hanging on for dear life. Unfortunately for me this is what almost all of my onside turns feel like beyond 35' off and I'm not entirely sure how to fix it.

[Horton]

Does leaning on the line harder increase angle or change your line?

[Luke Skywalker]

You don't believe in the Force, do you?

[Klundell]

The forces from the boat would increase as angle increases. So yes you would have to lean harder on the line to increase your angle.

[Horton]

Not what I asked. If you drop away more does that mean your line is moving way from the next ball

[6balls]

Klundell, I won't argue with your scores and it certainly looks like Nate is giving it some mustard. Food for thought in that controlled aggression is ok.

Uncontrolled aggression for me or Razor and nothing good happens. Usually we find ourselves in the water, handle in hands, ribs sore, and boat still moving down the course. We are doing all we can to get lighter, and our skiing is improving as a result. Hoping to catch up with your skiing someday!

[Ed_Johnson]

After three years dealing with ZO I developed "Ed's Rule."

 

Leaning and PULLING equals Angle "plus" Excessive SPEED.

 

Leverage and RESISTING equals Angle "without" excessive speed.

[6balls]

I'm with ya, Ed.

[The_MS]

Angle comes from the lower body off of a strong counter rotation. The lean propels you.

[skibug]

I was going to start another thead to discuss the following; but, I think it fits here. Horton can decide.

 

I agree with Kludell's comments and have sort of theorized about the timing and loading of the boat equating to being "light on the line". I think it all has to do with your "hook up" and your "work zone". If you had the most intense part of your pull directly behind the boat, the driver would not feel you as much; or, at least feel like you were pulling the boat off center. It is all about force vectors and Physics. How to correct it? That is another story; I am still trying to figure it out.

 

If you are early, can keep your speed up through the turn, and not have to load the line until you were 1/2 back to the white water; you will feel a whole lot "lighter on the line" than if you are late or down course and have to get on the line right off the ball.

[skibug]

No, that is right; but, those who do it better, more often are "light on the line". I don't think anyone is necessarily lighter or heavier on the line; that is only the perception of the boat crew/driver. I contest that load, as shown on the MB and TW comparison, is somewhat consistent between skiers of comparable skill level and boat speed. It is just a matter of where you apply it; hence, no one is actually lighter on the line, just more efficeint and precise base on technique and work zone.

[Klundell]

Well said skibug I totally agree.

[Cam]

After this video was taken 2 years ago Nicole was coaching me and she told me to attack the first wake, she certainly seems to be doing that here.

[ForrestGump]

Almost all of the top tier elite skiers attack the first wake. They do anything but hide from ZO there. Now, they have learned to progressively get there, but they have it "firewalled" at the first wake.

[thompjs]

Shane, Todd J comes over once in awhile to Ski Texas and he makes no changes to his style for PP, StarGazer, ZO. Hardly even cares what setting on ZO.

 

He just focuses on getting around the buoys. (And he gets around a lot!)

[ForrestGump]

Jim, Mueller tells me it's simple. Just turn and lean. :)

[thompjs]

Shane, my problem is that I can neither turn nor lean.

[ForrestGump]

Jim, I asked him once "What if you are turn and lean challenged?" He said there's always kneedle-pointing. :)

[thompjs]

Or hopefully you can drive straight for those that can