Baller_ The_MS Posted January 7, 2012 Baller_ Share Posted January 7, 2012 I clicked on the Promo boat section at SIA and noticed that there are lots of 2011s still out there. I am former CC guy and know how hard it was selling boats every year. I see people that are buying new boats but dont understand why they would not buy a promo vs a new boat. In Mn, there is only one CC Promo and with all the skiers, you would think that boat would sell. Please help sell these boats so we can enjoy 2012 boats this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted January 7, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 7, 2012 It's tough cuz it's still a lot of dough. I make a good income but just can't justify the dough. Hoping in another 2 years I'm there. Agree it's a no brainer promo vs. new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted January 7, 2012 Author Baller_ Share Posted January 7, 2012 I always tried to break even or bank the loss on what I would have lost if just owned a boat year over year. Our club always buys Promos also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sullivan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I price my boats by taking the money I make on the tournaments I pull and subtract that from what I paid for the boat. Hopefully it works out that way. Chances are however that won't happen, I still need to sell the boat for around 47K to break even. That is tough to do. My boats are in perfect condition, you would not be able to tell that it has 90 to 100 hours on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted January 7, 2012 Author Baller_ Share Posted January 7, 2012 My exit out of the program was due to not making money from the tourneys. 3-4 bucks a gallon with 2 hour drives to sites did not cover my expenses. At that time Minn did not let promo guys ski for free but an official did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted January 7, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 7, 2012 OB -- I agree on buying promos, but your hours math doesn't work for this single owner. I bought a 2005 197TT at the end of the year with 100 hours. I've run it six years and just broke 1000 hours. I do agree, however, that I could run it for another 10 years. I maintain boats very well and this one looks and drives new. Get the SG zero off emulator this winter and it is good for as long as it will run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted January 7, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 7, 2012 OB, why does a club get rid of such a boat with so much more useful life if hull/engine/speed control have not been updated in a newer model? I suppose they become "unsellable" at some hour mark, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted January 7, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 7, 2012 @OB i know what you are saying. I know one Malibu promo guy who has been trying to get rid of his '08 Lxi since the end of 08, well he is still asking $40,000 for it. There are 2011 Lxi's for that. The new Txi is about $10,000 more than that and I personally would spend the extra cash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted January 7, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 7, 2012 @OB the only problem is with running a boat for 20 more years when it hits 1000 hours, is that everything on it is outdated and will be impossible to sell. In 20 years ZO may look pathetic compared to what they have (assuming they even change speed controls). The wakes I dont think will get any better but the style of the boats will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted January 7, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 7, 2012 My friend has a 2010 SN 200 OB just like that. I love that boat so much. I dont see how it can really get better then that. Easy to use on public water also if you ever did take it to public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted January 7, 2012 Author Baller_ Share Posted January 7, 2012 Thats a nice boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 I have been on CC promo team for over 25 yrs and I have seen just about everything. 90% of all promo boats are clean and just as good as new. When buying a promo boat the person are getting a boat that has been dialed in and tournament proven. It is a turn key and go for most people who buy and the dealer cannot do that. The days of making money on the boat are over. Most people are lucky just to break even. The people who don't sell there boats are asking too much money, don't want to deal, have high hrs 200 to 300 hrs or just plain don't take care of the boat. To the average recreational boater who puts 25 hrs a year on the boat a 100 hrs may seem alot but in reality it is nothing. The motor is really only getting broken in. Spread the word about the promo boats because If promo boats don't get turned over the team members will not keep bring them to tournaments if the keep incurring loses plus price increases. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 When I was trying to sell my 2009, most people were calling me up and offering me 10K less than I paid for it. There seems to be an idea that promo boat guys are getting their boats for half of dealer invoice or something like that. dave2ball -- I usually don't deal too much since I have my boat priced at about what I have in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 @thompjs so what do dealers pay for there boats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skibug Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 I bought a promo in 2009 and I can say in my searches prices varied by as much as 10K to 15K for similar boats. I was lucky enough to find the rock bottom deal. I will say I am convinced that there are quite a few trying to make some money on the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 @dave2ball To the average recreational boater who puts 25 hrs a year on the boat a 100 hrs may seem alot but in reality it is nothing. Amen. When we bought our 1st inboard my dad freaked out because it was an 04 Lxi and its had bout 700 hrs on it. Took me weeks to explain to him that these engines will go as long as you want them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 If I could make 15K on per boat sale, I'd quit my current job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 I don't know any promo person who makes 15K on a boat. If they say they do I would like to see the proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skibug Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 All I am saying is that that was the delta between what I paid and what some of the higher priced boats were listed. I can't beleive they would have sold them for what they were asking. I do know I negotiated on a couple of boats and the one I bought was significantly lower than (around $4K to $5K) the others of similar features and hours. There were even boats out there with double or triple the hours that were listed for significantly more money. The people I bought it from were very up front with me. They were 25 year promo participants and were just looking to turn it over at a break even price for a new boat. So, obviously there were others trying to make some money on it. Unless the promo deals are not equal between those on the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chuck_Dickey Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 I got a great price for my 2011 PS-197 WTT Promo boat. It only had 50 hours on the clock and is in mint condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ntx Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 It depends on the promo owner. Some, think that they should sell for what they paid for it. Others are more realistic and understand that they get the benefit of the boat usage, and in some cases free entry to tournaments. They are willing to sell at a slight loss. Then you get the dealers that complain that the promo guys are selling to cheap and cutting into the dealers customers. For a short time, the dealers took the boats back in. Then, they were stuck with selling year old boats. It also depends in the boat company. Each has a differant plan. Some offer bigger discounts based on years in the program and the number of tournaments you pull. This past year, we bought a 2011 MC at a price in the very low 40,s If you don't need a trailer, some of the promos will work deals on the trailers also. They don't want to have to purchase a new trailer each year. If you can find the right promo guy, it can be a win/win. There can be as much as a 5,000 swing from boat to boat. Also know which options are on the boats. (hydro-gates, keyless iginition, towers, sound systems, speed control systems) Most are the same now. But several years ago when you had some with PP and some with ZO and some with both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 There's a wide variety of prices in both promo and non-promo older boats that people will try to ask. Just look at the prices on ski it again. Razor1 bought is '05 promo in '06 with under 100 hours for $31K. There are '05 promo's listed today for as high as $29,900 six years later...way overpriced. I worry that the way prices are going, the promo prices are also getting pretty high. They may still be a great deal over new...but becoming a lot of cash. This alone could kill the promo driver's when they have boats too expensive to unload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted January 8, 2012 Author Baller_ Share Posted January 8, 2012 I just want the programs to stay strong so we have new boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jdarwin Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 This goes to a subject that is near and dear to me - why must we have current year boats to pull tournaments? To break a record in the US, it must be towed by a current or year-old approved towboat. Everywhere else in the world, you can break a record behind a 2007 196 w/ ZO. Seems to me that the rule requirements make it necessary to have promo programs and therefore creates a market for new boats that otherwise would not exist. Towboat manufacturers pay AWSA to approve the boats and in exchange, they make rules that require current year boats. Seems one feeds the other. But, I may be way off base here. Just my $.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller EricKelley Posted January 8, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 8, 2012 Truly the reason why promo prices are increased is because boat prices have increased. There me be a few people who try to make a thousand or two on a boat but thats about it. The promo guy(s) in our area just try to break even. The boats get more and more expensive all the time. Everyone needs to be thankful that there are those who are willing to be a part of promo programs. The hassle of trailering your boat rain or shine to a tournament, getting there before the tournament starts, staying til it's over, cleaning it up, the wear and tear on your tow vehicle, cost of tow vehicle gas, cost of hotels, hassle of selling, titling, etc...... At this time there is no real financial incentive to do this, people do it because they love their sport. My thanks to them for doing what they do. Why are the boats going up in cost? I think we're getting more than we have in the past as far as technology and size. Govenmental impositions in emissions have increased cost in engines greatly. Now manufactures have to engineer there products to meet these standards. Developing safe catalytic converters adds sv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 @EricKelly Why do we have to have increasing size? Wouldnt that be a way of keeping price down? In turn helping out the promo guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 I didn't mean for a second to minimize the work that the promo guys do for the sport. I also do not blame them for the fact that boats are expensive. My only point was that as tourney boats become terribly expensive, so do promo's which limits the pool of those who can afford them. Similar to wondering who was building the homes that were built prior to the recession, I sometimes scratch my (balding) head and wonder who is buying these boats and with what funds? I'm a 1%'er, and this year the President would call me rich; if I can't buy one while saving for retirement, saving for my (2) kids education, driving an 11 year old car, a 6 year old Dodge SUV, and an 11 year old SN 196...who can? Maybe those who are doing exceptionally well or those willing to have a serious debt/equity ratio? I worry that the promo program will die b/c the boats become too expensive for them to sell. I bought a '00 CC wake for $17K two years ago on par w/anything out there. Alternatively I could pick up an aged MC 197 w/low hours, or an aged Lxi for that matter...they are out there with low hours for the taking at 1/2 price vs. promo. At this point, just about the only market for a promo is a buoy head who needs ZO, and if we need ZO those early ZO boats are depreciating like stones, some w/low hours. These are the discounted competition to the promo's. If I can pick up a 5 yr old promo w/200 hours, why buy a 2011 w/200 hours for $15K more? As far as that goes, a well known baller was offering a very recent Lxi w/ZO under $30K and was having trouble unloading. I'm just throwing it out there...wish I had an easy solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 More $ = > stupid!! I still love my paid off 02 196 with ZO. Think I'm going to keep her a few more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 OB, Banks are no longer loaning money for a boat or RV with zero down. With few exceptions, they are requiring a customer have skin in the game. If a customer has an 850+ credit score, they can find a finance company that might do zero down, but most are wanting 10% down minimum. And if you are below 720 credit score expect to pay 15% at most institutions. Also, most financial institutions will only do 15+ year loans on loans over $60k. Anything less and they want 8-12 year loans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller EricKelley Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 I think there is a market for bare bones models now. Nautique has done these sporadically without much sales success. Moomba's small boat was a great value but I have only seen a few of them. Personally for the way I boat though I'd rather have a nice used loaded boat than a bare bones model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 Eric, I believe most agree with your position and thus the bare bones models have not succeeded. Those models have little margin in them and thus need high volume to be profitable to the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 In this struggling economy, you also have desparate dealerships unloading new non-currents at prices way too close to 100 hour promos. Looking at the qty of promos on SIA, I think there will be a few owners taking serious loses, or end up keeping their boats. It's too bad the manufacturers don't offer a lease program for the promo guys. It seems the promo member is the only one with skin in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 The bottom line: $50,000 is alot of money. Most people cant put out that kinda cash in this economy. Actually most people NEVER can put out that cash for a boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted January 9, 2012 Author Baller_ Share Posted January 9, 2012 @Ilivetoski, the problem is, lots of people can and thats why they keep going up. I am probably shooting from both side here but we need another round of MB, MC issues like in 2009 when all the west coats dealers went under and left a glut of boats out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 Ilivetoski, You'd be surprised. My best friend sells nautiques, mastercrafts and formulas. The average price of the inboards(cc and MC) is $80k. He sold 77 in 2011 and 50% of the people paid cash. I've seen multiple personal checks for over $100k for the big MC's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 ...which shows who is buying them, eh? These folks don't make just enough for the gov't to call them rich...they really are rich! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 Problem is that promo or not, boats have gotten too expensive IMO. How do I wrap my head around the idea of spending more for a ski boat (that gets used half the year) than for a car? Whether I could afford it or not, I couldn't justify it mentally. My 2005 MC 197 TT will be running for a long time before I step up and spend for a new or even promo boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 This may sound like an odd comparison, but ski boats (MC & CC anyway) have historically followed similar pricing inlfation with higher-end cars, like Corvettes. Compared to other boats on the water, they were always considerably more money, so actually I think they're priced roughly where we should expect. It sucks, but I don't think it's way out of line. Malibu took advantage of MC/CC pricing in the 80's & 90's, by building a decent boat for less money. Now we're seeing Moomba, Axis, etc doing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 Heck, a decked out Tahoe in '99 was $25k, and now they're $50k+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 I can't afford one of those, either! Bought an '06 Hemi Durango in '07 for $17K during the SUV crash w/20K miles...now over 100K miles. At such point as I pull the trigger on a inboard for home it will be the oldest, lowest hour ZO equipped ride I can find. Really hard to justify new at new prices which seem only to be going upward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 I hear ya 6! I used to justify low to mid $30's for a boat, but now I'm on the lookout for an old TSC 1 boat that I can put the PP ZO sim in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 I will say this.......I know the markup that boat mfr's put to the dealers. A dealer would love to sell at a 15% margin. Realistically, these days they average about 11%. The mfrs are operating on a LOT bigger margin to the dealer than the dealer is to the customer. In the case of promos, dealers typically get only a delivery or setup fee from the mfr and quota attainment. Boats are overpriced. In late 09 our promo MC's were selling for $42-44k. The two 2011s left here in the area are going for $47-49k. That's over a 10% increase in 2 years. It's hard to justify that and it's not the promo owner or dealers fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 Hopefully, OB is not having to calculate fuel consumption or anything critical like that while he's captain of an airliner. As it would seem that math is not his strong point. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ilivetoski Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 @ShaneH those are the people who are buying the wakeboard boats and who are keeping the companies in buisness so that the skiers can have their boat. I am friends with a pro wakeboarder who rides for MC and he works at a local MC dealership and they have added Axis because they just cant sell these 113k MC wakeboard boats. Everytime they turn around my friend is selling another Axis. They are about 60k for a fully loaded one and the dealership cant keep them stocked. Another thing is say I buy a $50,000 SN 200. Lets go with OB's math. Im paying almost $600 a month. I lose my job. What happens now? I lose the boat, hurts my credit, when i get back on my feet it will be hard for me to to get approved for another ski boat. Im potentially out getting a ski boat. Also @ShaneH I was talking to the owner of the MC dealership and she said that on a 113k MC X-star if someone walked in and offered then 70 they would take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted January 9, 2012 Author Baller_ Share Posted January 9, 2012 The only issue I have with over 1000 hours is the interiors are often showing wear. I know that the engines can go forever. The only thing I like about the price increase is that it keeps the value of our clubs 196 where it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 MS has a point on new boat pricing raising older boat values, although it's going to be a bummer when a TSC 2 sells for what it was purchased for new. I sold the three 196's I owned for more than I paid, and it was only due to the new boats being so much more money. My theory of why NADA boat values seem so low and out of whack, is that they don't take into account the prices of the new models. It's counterintuitive to raise the value of an '08 196 from year to year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted January 9, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2012 As far as the xstar comment goes, I know exactly the cost on one. That 113k retail xstar costs the dealership 79-83k with trailer and they would normally try to sell one to a customer for 92-96k. They get about $2k rebate from MC if they sell it within 60 days. So even with their highest incentive, they have well over $70k in it. Now, if that boat sits for 6, 7, 9 months and they have to start paying curtailment payments to start buying down their floor plan loan on that boat, things change. But there is no dealer going to lose $8-10k on a boat unless there is a special circumstance such as a curtailment coming up or it's possible since they have a pro rider on staff that they get a demo discount for that boat as MC's demo discount is 10% off of cost. Otherwise a dealer that takes that loss is not going to be a dealer very long. As far as the cheaper boats go, it's area dependant. In the south and soutwest, the cheaper boats don't sell. You can barely give an Axis away here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted January 10, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 10, 2012 OB, I'm greedy. Look around long enough and find s'one who bought w/good intentions and hardly used the thing. Promo hours on a 5-8 year old boat. They are out there if one is patient. Would I pay a little more for perfection hugely discounted from new...yep. I'm extremely picky on condition of gelcoat, carpet, interior. My '00 196 bought in '08 had 84 hours and looked like it never left the showroom. Still does though the hours are up significantly :) I could have bought any number of 500 hour boats for $14K, but spent $17K for this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skibug Posted January 10, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 10, 2012 Do you think someone can actually put a number to hours on a boat? For instance, if you have identical boats of identical make/model/year/etc.; how much is 100 hours worth in terms a decreased value? Is it a linear value of percentage based on the stated life expectancy of an engine, hull, etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skibug Posted January 10, 2012 Baller Share Posted January 10, 2012 When I owned my previous boat as a single owner and we rotated 3 - 4 boats (which equaled about 6 - 7 skiers) I would put about 80-90 hours a season on my boat. Now, we have a semi-club boat that 5 of us own and there are about 7-8 skiers that ski behind it. I think we put about 400 hours on it this year. I always used 100 hours a year as a benchmark for normal use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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