Cash prize 34mph series that is tailored for the average Baller?

[Horton]

What would you think about a cash prize 34mph series (or event) that is tailored for the average Baller? No ex –pro skiers and maybe no one who has made it to the final 8 or 16 in a BigDawg.

 

Three round plus head to head. $200 entry with most of that going to the cash prize?

 

The BigDawg and now the Sr Tour are still going to be dominated by limited number of skiers but darn it the rest of us want to have some fun too. The winner will not have a fraction of the bagging rights as the winner of a BigDawg but will have had as much fun.

 

Just and idea. Just throwing it out there. Have been talking to some folks about this kind of thing.

[Horton]

Two lakes - 80 skiers - more inclusive.

[T_C]

Great idea. It would be even more inclusive if you had it handicapped against your 12 month average similar to the way Greg does it at Diablo.

[Horton]

@tc that is fun but can get complicated.

[ForrestGump]

Let's get this going.

 

[rayn]

I think it just adds a third tier and still leaves people out and then you would need another tier for those who can't compete in the third tier and so on and on.

 

Although harder do do, a well thought out handicap system would attract much more interest, be more inclusive and would differentiate itself from big dawg and senior tour.

 

Plus. I could compete then.

[T_C]

@horton: Not so complicated. Use the 12 month average for run order then seed it after two rounds. Everyone has a chance!

[jedgell]

Awesome idea! I like the idea of handicap, but can see that it would get to be too much trouble. Maybe just 2 divisions based on tournament ave. One group with scores less than 96(35 off), the other group 96 and above. Whatever the rules, I'd like to go.

[Horton]

@tc @jedgell @rayn

 

My experience with handicapped contests in not generally positive. You have to review scores and weed some people out. Do you want to be he person that tells another skier that they can't ski or their handicap is BS? Not me.

 

Greg does a really good job but his event is pretty high end so it attracts a higher level of skier. When I did the EZ-Fin Tool challenge the winner was generally someone who had just had a break through so they could swoop in and take the prize. That is not what we are going for.

 

Inclusive is always my goal but you have to design a format and understand that it will not fit everyone. There will always be a tradeoff / compromise.

 

@rayn

A third tier and a forth tier.... yes I hear you but Rome was not burnt in a day

 

On the other hand - if I am not responsible I would be happy to go to a handicapped event. I just do not want my ass chewed when some 8 year old wins 5K for running 30mph.

 

 

[Horton]

So ….

I am not suggesting that I would host, organize, facilitate or bankroll any such event. I am thinking that I could lend my brand and marketing muscle to any LOC who holds an event that is good for water skiing, good for the Ballers and good for the brand BallOfSpray. If it becomes a Baller Tour we could form a committee to frame some rules so we have some consistency.

 

I am currently working with @OB on his ProAM. So far he is doing all the work and I am applauding but when the time comes I will use BOS for promotion and coverage of the event. Marc Austin and I have been talking about Ballers Nationals / Ballers Bash for a couple of years. With some luck this will happen late next summer. Same deal.

 

Heck, if you like the idea but do not want to brand it as a Baller event that is less work for me. Maybe I will come and try to win some money. All we are talking about is a class C plus a Head to Head at the end cash prize at the end.

 

[6balls]

This sounds like a de-facto Ballers Bash and possible Ballers Bash tour. Would be a pretty interesting way for a lot of us to meet one another over skiing.

 

[h2oski]

Handicap doesn't have to be 100%, could be 75% of the difference between the skiers ave and 100 bouys, as a example similar to what is used in bowling. More rounds will tend to equalize, maybe 2 rounds, then the top 12 ski round 3 and then the top 4 ski head to head. Pay prize money to the top 12.

[klindy]

Here's a thought. 2 two round tournaments (Sat/Sun). Saturday is a 2 round (record preferable) open to anyone probably 40 or 59 entries per lake. After the tournament Saturday skiers are paired with the top skier/bottom skier until everyone is on a team of two. Saturday evening we hold an auction (Calcutta) where you bid on our pick of the winner. Half the pot goes to the winning team and 1/2 goes to the winning bidder. Teams can buy themselves and bidding starts at $20.

 

Sunday is another tournament which consists of either a head to head or one round of a qualifier/seeding round then a head to head.

 

If there's enough money in the pot payouts can go to 3 or even 5 places. We can even add "options" like $10 per skier where all scores (combined scores from Saturday) are ordered from highest to lowest and every 20th percentile wins 20% of the pot (top score, 80th percentile, 60th percentile, etc). Only skiers who pay the option are eligible.

 

And/or $10 per skier option for "class" winner. Use the AWSA ranking list and all level 8 skiers ski against each other, all level 7, etc. Again only those who pay will play. Enough in the pot and pay 2 or 3 places.

 

Tournament entry fees all go to the host and all the prize money is funded by the skier. If the Saturday tournament is a record there will be less incentive to sandbag. You can always make the "official seeding score" the actual combined score or 90% of their AWSA average.

 

Of course these are suggestions and can be adjusted as necessary. In fact I believe this idea would technically not be considered a cash prize tournament so the cash prize rules wouldn't apply.

[Wish]

Could call it the "Stray Dawg Tour" :-)

[Texas6]

This is exactly what "the rest of us" are looking for. A best of the rest tourney that doesn't require the kind do semi-pro scores the Big Dawgs are throwing down. A chance to hang with all the ballers and give some annual bragging rights to the ballers capable of throwing up the biggest scores. I'm completely down!! Lets get it on

[Ed_Obermeier]

...Inclusive is always my goal but you have to design a format and understand that it will not fit everyone. There will always be a tradeoff / compromise.

 

@rayn

A third tier and a forth tier.... yes I hear you but Rome was not burnt in a day

 

Three or four (or more) levels starts to sound a little bit like a higher level INT tournament but with more pretty good skiers and some cash incentive. Could be a lot of fun.

[MattP]

I don't ski 34mph. Y'all have fun! I will support any "tour" that helps grows the sport. Hmmm what about an amateur 36 tour...

[bishop8950]

There was no voting option for "Great idea, I am fine being excluded" but thats my vote. It would be like the Big Dawg was at the first event. I think your proposed cut of no former pros and no sweet 16 big dawgs would create the field of skiers you are looking for. You might not want to exclude sweet 16 skiers from the early years when there were 35 off guys making the cut. The idea of a cut at "never ran 39" would work too.

 

I strongly believe it should be straight up buoy count, not handicapped. Handicap events are cool and fun for a lot of skiers, but its just a whole different deal. The crown is much more meaningful when its straight up. If the event is well attended (assume 50-80) you will have a competitive pack of deep 38and well into 39 guys that would create an interesting H2H bracket and thats where the excitement is.

[Marco]

"Cash prize 34mph series that is tailored for the average Baller?"

 

Maybe the thread should be titled "Cash prize 34mph series that is tailored for the UPPER LEVEL Baller?" I doubt if the average baller runs deep 38 and into mid 39. Still, I think it is a great idea, even if I am on the low side of the bubble and not competative with the upper level Ballers.

 

 

[skibug]

Before I answer the poll; what is the average baller? Would this be a handicapped type event? I am guessing the average baller does not run 38. In order to get the masses involved, you have to tailor it so the masses can participate/compete.

[bishop8950]

Horton could probably tell you what the average baller ski level is. I was thinking more about who would sign up for this event. Of course I dont know, but if it were 80 ballers I would assume the top of that field will be a group of 20 guys who can get mid 38 or more. So thats maybe 60 other skiers from 15 off to 38off. Probably a big block at 32/35. Like any event you will have to choose your reason to go. Maybe you have a chance to win. Maybe you would be stoked to make the H2H. Maybe you want to ski a pb. Maybe you will go hack your best 28off, drink beer, and throw tomatoes at Horten when he skis? All of which are cool reasons to participate. Now that I think of it, maybe I will come with no ski and just tomatoes.

[bishop8950]

If the format is straight up and hypothetically you get a H2H of 38 off guys, you could do other things to make the middle of the field more interesting. For example, awards like "best 32 off skier" where if your average going into the event is something at 32, the high score of the day from that group is recognized. Same for the other line lengths.

 

You need other stuff like award for biggest crash. Rewards for anyone that skis with a big curly wig and glasses. You get the idea.

[ForrestGump]

Drink beer and throw tomatoes at Horton? I'd almost pay a double entry fee for that right! @bishop8950 I like the idea of the highest score against your average. That would definitely be easier to administer in comparison to the H2H against your average like Diablo.

[Horton]

@Wish If someone bites and puts one an event anything like what we are talking about, I would not want to reference the BigDawg. It is it’s own thing and I would not want to take from it.

 

@bishop8950 Any event has to have some sort of limits and criteria. Someone will always be left out. What I am suggesting in this thread is that anyone who can put on a class C can make it into an event that is so much more than a class C. Make up your own rules as you see fit. Get out of the USAWS box.

 

If you asked me to write the rules, I would take a long look at the USAWS rankings and other lists and try to design an event that would be the most fun for the most skiers.

 

US Nationals is totally uninteresting for me but we still wish for some kind of season highlight event. I do not know how everyone else feels about it but to me a plane trip across the country for one ride at Nationals is not worth it. If I am going to take time off work and spend all the $ it needs to be a lot of fun. 20 years ago when I was a 3 eventer and my parents paid the bills it seemed to make sense but as a single event adult I just cannot get my head around it.

 

I could simply sign up for a BigDawg but am never going to make the Head to Head. Why let only the best 16 have the fun? (I plan to enter the BD in Miss this year but that is more about covering the event.)

 

You ( @bishop8950 ) belong with the BigDawgs and I mean that as a compliment. I am nowhere near your score. If I do not care about Nationals and do not really at the BD, where is the fun? I am lucky enough to get to do some super cool stuff but what about the skiers at and below my level that want to add a little spice to their skiing. What would be the most fun for the typical Baller?

 

@MattP this conversation is 34mph centered because most of the skiers in the sport are men 35 to 55. This is also the typical reader of this site. I am not saying this is a good thing. The sport desperately needs young skiers and women. What @OB has planned for Masters week is awesome and will include skiers like yourself. Growing the younger skiers is a whole other problem.

 

[MattP]

@Horton I know. I have been talking to @OB about it. I just wanted to remind everyone that the young guys still exist and are the future of the sport! If we don't plan ahead there will not be a future.

[Inboardfix]

Many of you know the Schoeten's and the King Schoeten is Bill. Although I can't say for sure but I bet Bill has more National's medals than any person in the history of sport. The man knows more about skiing than any person I've had the pleasure to meet (no offense intended Horton).

 

When I asked Bill what happened to the heyday of waterskiing his answer surprised me. Although this is a paraphrase his basic opinion was ratings tournaments and dug out lakes led to the downfall from the heyday. Ratings tournaments because all of the sudden winning the tournament didn't mean anything. Skiers came, skied one round and if they got their rating chances are they'd leave. No one cared whether or not they won the tournament because what mattered was the rating. Dug out lakes because it took the sport out of the public. No one outside the skiing community had an opportunity to see a tournament by accident. To see a tournament now you have to know where and when it is occuring whereas on a public site if your cruising the lake and see a bunch of activity you're going to check it out.

 

This is a long way of saying (sorry for the length) I don't see where another tournament to pat the people on the back who aren't quite Big Dawg level will help grow the sport. Also, I don't see where competitive skiing will ever get away from private site lakes nor should it. However, I do think making the local tournaments mean something will help grow the sport. Additionally, if there was incentive to attend a tournament where you know you're not going to ski well, i.e. public lake, then the sport would get viewed by others outside the normal crowd. Such as giving the top 3 a partial qualifying score for Nats (parallel to a qualifying score at a C tournament).

 

No, I'm not against the tournament mentioned on this post but feel getting those skiers under Big Dawg level to support the local tournaments is a more important goal than having them travel all over the country to back yard tournament where nobody is going to see them. Other states may be different than ours (Alabama) but I know of 5-6 local skiers who regularly get into 35-38 but don't do tournaments for various reasons (sorry to say I'm one of them). Figure out what it takes to get those guys across the country involved and the sport will get a shot in the arm.

 

 

[Horton]

@MattP Shut up. I hate it when you have a good point so be quiet.

[MattP]

@Horton thanks...?

You worry about the old guys. I'll worry about the future.

[Horton]

@Inboardfix “no offense intended Horton” Haaa none taken. Most of my opinions are reached after making phone calls to folks that know more than I do. Not that hard to dig around and find someone who knows more than me.

 

I think your friend Bill is pretty much on target. Funny that part of his theory indirectly blames my dad for the downfall of the sport – that is another thread.

 

I agree that what we are talking about will not save the sport. No question. I see it as a fun way to build passion. The prestige of most local tournaments is lost. No one cares who “wins” or at least I don’t. Here in SoCal local tournaments are so small that the pecking order is clear before anyone skis. In NorCal I think they have a more competitive scene but I think everyone still knows where they stand most of the time.

 

The reality is that the readers of this website represent more skiers than all of AWSA. If a few dozen Ballers get together to compete and have fun it is a small step in the right direction. Make if fun by making everyone out down a few extra $ and promote the whole thing here. It builds a little passion.

 

You want a plan to save the sport? That is a whole other problem. If you ask around you will get a pretty long list of what is going wrong with the sport but a shorter list of good solutions. That is also another thread.

 

[Horton]

@OB

You bring up a good point and that pains me.

 

If AWSA was to focus one thing that would make a difference - it would be to engage all the skiers who run balls but do not belong to AWSA and or do not compete.

[bishop8950]

@horton, I agree with you on all of this. There is room in the sport for something much better than Nationals and different than the Big Dawg. There are some cool ideas here, the discussion should continue. I think the fundamental difference between straight up vs handicap is first. Then there is the entry criteria and event format details. I hope someone is inspired to put it on and see what happens. The Senior Tour is one attempt, it would be great if there was another.

 

I would be happy if we gave "average" current tournament skiers a new and exciting venue to compete. If we could also bring the tournament lurkers to events and grow the numbers that would be awesome.

 

No matter what, I am packing tomatoes. See you in Miss :-)

[ForrestGump]

@horton The question is, how many is that though? The law of 80/20 is pretty universal in business and life. 80% of your issues can be attributed to 20% of the problems. So to deal with that you have to determine what that 20% is. Is it those skiers who don't belong to awsa or ski tournaments? No one has ever really identified what the 20% is that would give us the most bang for the buck.

[Skoot1123]

Biggest issue would be where to have it so the max number of folks could attend.

[MattP]

@skoot1123 multi lake site could help alleviate this problem.

[Skoot1123]

@mattp - yes, but also where in the world to have it. If in the US, it should be somewhere easy to get to and be close to a large airport. Hmmm, WS Atlanta??!

[Horton]

@Skoot1123 100% agree. More skiers the better but everyone has to ski a number of times and there are only so many hours in the day. The math is not in our favor.

[MattP]

@skoot1123 one might think.. I guess we should work on getting our second lake dug!

[Horton]

@bishop8950 if someone wants to host a handicapped event I am not against it but it is not what I would do. There are just too many pit falls and if there is money on the line it is harder to be a good sport if you think you got screwed.

[MattP]

I think handicapped events are a great way to get people involved in the sport and having fun at tournaments because everyone has a chance at winning. They are not a long term solution for everyone.

[Marco]

To make it interesting for everyone, you can do a competition within the overall tournament, where skiers who so choose can buy into a "better your ranking average" contest, where the skier who beats their ranked average by the most buoys wins the pool funded by those who bought in, but is not the winner of the tournament.

[klindy]

There's no reason you can't run a handicap as a 'virtual' tournament. In other words do both. At some point the score on the lake needs to be scored. After that a handicap is just a math problem.

 

Using the format suggestion I made above the handicap could be one of the "opt in" options with the entries made up of those who pay to opt in.

[6balls]

I used to ski a tourney grouped by ability level (rope length) regardless of age/speed. First two rounds normal, 3rd round head to head in each division which was a great fun. Top dogs got head to head, but novice did, too. Building the sport requires less on the elite side and more bringing in the longer line and recreational folk to the fold.

As for the idea proposed, it won't build the sport perse, but would be fun and a chance to meet fellow ballers...members of the best slalom site in the land. That would be fun and clearly there would be some great skiing to observe even if I choke and puke on my own.

[Brady]

@Horton. My two cents. Instead of handicapping, why not add a second tier for those as of the end of 2012 have never entered an event? There are lots of skiers here that fit that category and it would be much more inclusive. You could also make the cash prize for the newbies very small as to not take away from the big boys. In any event, it would be a ton of fun and I am most definitely in!

[Chef23]

I think it is a good idea and I am in favor of it but it does still leave out a big group of skiers. I have a long way to go before I would be competitive in an event like that.

 

I agree with @horton's point that most people don't know who wins a given tournament. For me tournaments have to be about skiing my best and beating @rayn because in Men's 4 mid 35 doesn't do anything.

 

That said INT events have lost their draw to me because it is all day for one pull. I like the multi round aspect of traditional events.

[woolly110]

why not have a proper novice class and run four passes x2 sets best of all 8 passes. doesnt matter if you miss first 3 then make a 6 at 55kph. that way a first timer can turn up and still get a decent ski out of it.

[Razorskier1]

I think this is just one of many great ideas for making tournaments more interesting to a category of skiers. For this format, I think a "never ran 39" is a good cutoff -- it means that anyone entering could walk away a winner. There are other cutoffs you could use to create interest in a particular tournament for other groups of skiers. It's great to throw these ideas out there. I think it is up to individual sites or sponsors to decide what they'd like to do, and do it. There won't be one format or one tournament that suits all. If someone wanted to run a similar "never ran 35" tournament, they could. I wouldn't try to make it into a series. Just let individual sites run what they want to run and make it fun. IT IS GREAT to have these ideas kicked out there!

[Horton]

@Razorskier1 We just need someone to step up and host it.

[Ed_Obermeier]

That said INT events have lost their draw to me because it is all day for one pull. I like the multi round aspect of traditional events.

 

Agreed @chef23, that is the one major drawback to INT. Here in Kansas we've pretty much always run two rounds of slalom (and set on both ends, not spin some lower classes as per INT rules), would run 3 but not enough time to get the wakeboarding etc in if we did that. Some states don't even run slalom which to me is a huge drawback (the coordinators are wakeboarders and don't know/can't be bothered with slalom). INT has it's place but there is opportunity for INT to really step up and fill the void if they were really interested.

[Razorskier1]

@Horton -- indeed that is the crux of the issue. Tough because you need someone with a site, supportive HOA and some tournament experience.

[Horton]

@Razorskier1 might have the wheels turning on first event already.