Experimental Binding Project

[thager]

Boring this time of year so I started a little project. Cut a plate from some G-10 I picked up. Not bad for first time but next one will be much better as I now know the order of the process to machine it correctly. By accident I found a cheap set of roller blade aggressive skates for $50 and figured I would make a pair of bindings similar to FM E's. Somewhere along the way I had an idea and these emerged. Still a lot of work to get the kinks out but I am happy so far. Not worth a patent so thought I would share. I haven't seen anyone else do this. In testing they release OTF easily. Last year I made dual lock bindings. Real tests begin in the spring. These have some potential. About $80.00 in this. Thoughts?

[Horton]

Cool but I can get you a deal on Strada boots. That will save you on medical bills

[RichardDoane]

@thager - so those cuffs just pull right off of their pivots ? I'd also cut some of the lower boot away (just above the highest lace eyelet) so you'll have easier forward flex, that's what I did to improve my FM's last season

[MattP]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mefnj1mBFz1rhw25ao1_250.gif

[Than_Bogan]

Neat idea. I'm always glad for innovators willing to experiment on themselves!

[BraceMaker]

The "truncated pyramid" or code is neat, I was visualizing something similar the other week.

 

But the pyramid would be angled on the bottom and back, and squared at the top, with a groove in the top surface to hold an O-Ring. The o-ring would stretch to a stud below.

 

In essence lift would try to force the cuffs off the cone, but would be maintained by the O-ring till a certain point where the O-ring was to be displaced by the force the angle of the cone generated.

 

I buy bits for playing from here: http://www.aggressivemall.com/USD-Classic-Throne-Shells-p/usd-shell-classic.htm

[The_MS]

Check out the $50 Fish that they are attached to. What a deal.

[Wish]

I've seen that before. Not sure which hard shell ski boot company played with that type of design but thought it was a neat idea.

[thager]

Have tried them all. Dual lock most recently, FM Quattro and the E's before that. Rode for a while with hard boots just bolted to ski. I like either both in or both out. The way these are set up the cuff's aren't even neccessary but since the cuffs are secured to the liners for now I will continue that direction. No cones involved. I want to keep it simple. Cuffs surround round hemispheres. These are good for OTFs. Not side loads or fall backs. Could go with tape for fall back releases but would probably have to dive for the plates. No system is totally safe. I'm ready to retire soon anyway. Winter sucks. @braceMaker Thanks for the link! Nice

,

 

 

[thager]

@Horton. Thanks but my regular boots are the RS-1's and they have their own issues.

[thager]

@MS ouch! Don't get me started on the Approaches! I loved mine but I never ever released from them.

[BraceMaker]

@Thager - just an interesting resource if you don't want to buy whole skates and dismantle them.

 

 

What's the tapered bit?

[Brady]

@thager Don't you worry about destroying your ankle on a side fall? OTF's can be painful, but I destroyed my knee and hip coming around the ball and having my ski twist and not releasing. Got to go with @Horton on this one, the strata will release you in all directions....but I am amazed at your skills!!!

[MattP]

If you do use them. Take video.

[BraceMaker]

I does a strada release sideways? It is a whole outer shell, might be a more flexible shell, but those TPU skates get pretty darned soft after some use.

 

Technically I think he's designed something darned close to the strada in overall function. Depending how well secured that cuff is.

[SkiJay]

@Brady For the record, the Stradas only release out the front, and it has to be a pretty forceful OTF before you get a full release.

[eleeski]

@thager Nice looking setup. Safer than some things out there. Worthy of a test.

 

Richarddoane's advice to increase the flex is reasonable. I prefer an easier flexing boot and the added motion may prevent the cuffs from being wedged off (a problem I never solved when I tried a similar idea - but your cuff retention looks much better than mine).

 

I personally prefer clips to laces. The pressure is much more repeatable and you can unclip between sets to let the feet relax. Clips are easy to install - I put them on my Stradas in place of the hard laces.

 

Lots of padding in the liner will allow the foot to slip out of the bindings. The Intuition standard liner has plenty of padding. Older Reflex liners don't have much padding. An oversize shell with thick padding might add some safety. But your foot shape might be important. Lisa almost always comes out of her shell, liner and all. I usually break my Gatorade lids but have come out a few times. Stan has never come out.

 

I am personally running a Strada with a padded stiffening tongue and Intuition liner front boot and a hardshell with no cuff as a rear.

 

Good luck with this project. It looks interesting.

 

Eric

[Ryno]

@thager I like what you're doing there.

I also wasn't happy with the Strada release... I had my rear foot come out and my front foot only come half out on a couple of falls, and this tweaked my ankle.

I've switched the front boot to an E-series and am much happier with the setup. But if you can come up with a similar setup for a cheaper price point, I'm all ears!

[BraceMaker]

@Ryno - one critique - the E-series has adjustable retention screws.

 

I suspect @thager is going to have one issue with the release. The ankle ratchet buckle tensions the cuff circumferential, which reduces the diameter of the cuff at the ankle. If you reduce the diameter enough the cuff will have trouble "popping" off the bolt, if you don't reduce it enough it will have a tendency to get stuck on the bolt. Making it more complex, the cuff changes its flexibility based on temps and use.

 

The value in what FM has put together in the E-Series is that the cuff is slotted, and the bolt is adjustable, which in theory gives adjustability to the force of the release, and the key hole shape prevents anything odd happening.

 

I think thager has a great concept, I have some old cuffs that I might drill out this weekend to dry trial.

[CsSkis]

Another form of boot release. These were a set of step-in bindings I created in the fall of 2011. The release springs were a laminate of fiberglass and carbon (as were the custom molded boots).

 

I learned a couple of things when I first tried these bindings. But, basically, I don't ever want to have boots that release independently of the front and back foot (single plate, please, or if one releases so does the other). I had an interesting toe release of the front foot as I was going through the wakes, but the back foot was still attached. The landing was not pretty!

 

I have shelved them for now, as I am happy with my (fixed mount) custom bindings that I have used for about 4-5 years.

 

With regard to the releasable cuff. O'Brien (Adam Cord) was developing the same concept for the Elite bindings. Unfortunately, he hadn't completed his R&D work prior to his departure from O'Brien. He would be a good source of information regarding the design requirements for the cuff hinge/tension pin, as he used himself as a "guinea pig" for the test bindings.

 

Chuck Illi

[BraceMaker]

@sixam675 - Kinda like a rifle trigger. You have a springloaded sear with an engagement surface.

 

I bet you spent a fair amount of time fiddling with those angles and the depth of engagement.

[thager]

Only binding injury I have had was in the RS-1s. Pulled a quad on a slow OTF at a tourney. It was my own fault as I had over tightened the laces. Black, blue and sore for a week. The cuffs on these pretty much just float on the buttons. Tightening the cuff actually makes these pop off easier. I think tightening moves the cuff ears out on the backside of the buttons. If I can figure out how to post a video I will but I do not have a digital video recorder. @BraceMaker The bolt is recessed into the hemisphere which is really a round HDPE ball cut in half. If anything I may have to make the cuff stiffer to stop the flexing. @ryno Not making any for profit. Tried that with my fin protectors years back until fun became work, much like Horton and his carbon fins. Now copycats make them. I also don't need the liability. Copy at your own risk! @MattP Couldn't be any worse than last years dual lock experiment. At least MS was amused until I found the right amount of tape.

[thager]

@sixam675 Wow! That's cool but complicated.

[thager]

@eleeski Thanks! The laces are elastic and came from the bungy I made the hemispheres from.

@sixam675 I met Adam at Drew's many years back but he was working on a snowski type binding for OB then. Wasn't aware of anyone else dabbling in cuffs. Good info.

[thager]

@scotchipman. I've been toying with that too.

[Steven_Haines]

How about something like this? They can be moved from ski to ski easily too! I use a 2" Velcro strap on the liners for a more secure feeling and so the liners don't go flying in a yard sale.

[Steven_Haines]

Here's another shot. I have everything cut out above the pivot point for freedom of movement.

[thager]

@ Steven Haines Looks like a possible good design improvement. Why did you cut out the front toe? Back toe makes good sense though. Also, why so much rope?

[Steven_Haines]

@thager, when i originally bought the bindings I should have gotten a smaller shell and that additional room just bothered me so I hacked it off! No reason for the extra bungee, just wasn't finished testing at the time the pic was taken. It works just like a Strada boot but feels more secure/has better lateral support. That sensation could also be that I'm accustomed to the feel of the hard boot feel. Who knows...they work well though and theres not much that can go wrong with them!

[eleeski]

@Steven_Haines Nice setup!

 

Very clever on the velcro to lock the liner in place. I cut the toe off an RS1 and ruined it because the liner slipped out of place. Maybe I could salvage it with that trick. But when I release from the RS1 the liner often comes out in the release. I wonder if the liner coming out is an important part of the release proceedure. The binding I am working on currently does depend on the liner exiting the shell - but that is a work in progress.

 

I also approve of the oversize shell with the toe cut out. I do that on my trick bindings. The oversize allows a better liner than the skate liner (Intuitions) - and it saves weight. But my bindings have clips that I run tight to keep the liners in place. The release is from the Gatorade lids (like velcro).

 

Bungee over the toes might make the binding uncomfortable. That's why I use clips over the toes - even on the RS1s. The bungees on the cuff are critical for the release and I like the feel for slalom.

 

The side support of your binding looks great as long as there is enough padding in your liner. What liner are you using? It looks thinner than an Intuition but thicker than a skate liner. Where did you get it and were they expensive?

 

One last note, Nascar drill out that plate. There is a lot of wasted weight in that plate.

 

Eric

[SkiJay]

Radar Stradas are most definitely designed so the liner stays on your foot as it leaves the boot. Their "engineered" release is the soft rubber section up the backside of each binding. It is thinner and stretchier than it was on the original RS1, so the Strada can release a bit easier (a change that also made the Strada easier to cast outbound at the edge change).

[h2odawg79]

@eleeski, I agree with @Skijay on the Strada/RS-1 release, liners come out and normally stay on feet. Somehow, I do like my RS-1's better then my Strada's though.

[Steven_Haines]

Thanx @eleeski!

The velcro strap works well for keeping the liners on ur feet during a crash but I like them because you can cinch them as tight as you like so that it simulates the locked in feeling of the buckles on a traditional hardshell. I was messing around with a wider/thicker strap to try to enhance the support but found that the 2" strap worked just as well with less bulk.

I just fell into the oversized shell thing, it worked out well though 'cuz it gave me the volume I needed for my wider feet.

The liners are Intuition. I think they're the standard thickness.

I got them from FM for $60.00??? Pretty cheap!

They also offer a stiffer cuff if ur looking for more lateral support. I found they were too stiff to work well w bungee! I couldn't get a good fit around the ankle with them, even after heating and molding. I like how they're working now tho!!!

[BraceMaker]

@eleeski @steven Haines

 

FM vends a few Intuition liners - but that is their Tour-Pro liner - which is a softer, thinner liner, they sew pull loops into them.

 

They are quite a bit softer and more supple than the regular intuition universals/denali

 

http://i50.tinypic.com/15oz5u0.jpg

 

http://i50.tinypic.com/2sb8pxv.jpg

[Steven_Haines]

@Bracemaker, is there a noticeable difference between the two?

[BraceMaker]

Very in terms of feel around the foot and construction.

 

The style like yours is very soft, which actually means you need to use that pull loop, because when wet the liner will move around on you.

 

The other style is fairly rigid, I don't use a pull loop, and can push my foot in/out when wet and they stay in the boots when I pull my foot out for the most part.

[ThePantsManCan]

Anyone ever think about adding a Fogman Release to the front of the HO EXO System?

[thager]

I spent part of my day at Midwest Mastercraft looking at ski stuff. Bindings were pretty boring to look at! The wakeboard crew had some cool looking closed toe stuff color wise which got me thinking, could any of these bindings be converted to skiing? Soft footbed threw me for a second or two. I got to look at a half section and take some apart so the answer is yes. Could pretty easily be converted and mounted to a plate after grinding the plastic side mount stuff off the boot. Dual lock would be my choice. Really impressed by some of the boots cut, colorful look and lateral stiffness. Hmmmmm.

 

[MattP]

@thager yup color is all that matters thats for sure!.....

[thager]

@MattP Just saying!! Blahhhhhhhhh!!!! Blahhhhhhhhh! Blahhhhhh!

[h2odawg79]

@thager, I'm with ya. If I could I'd have these Baby's! Oh, H_ _ _ _ ya!

[thager]

@h2odawg79 Aggressive skates. That's very doable. What's the material? Vinyl?

[BraceMaker]

That's a USD "carbon", someone's pro model.

 

Its almost 400 for the boot!

[thager]

Yeah, and nobody in this sport has that kind of money? Easy mount to a G10 plate and Dual Lock.

Sure look cool though! : )

[h2odawg79]

@thager, IDK? -I just want 'em!

 

eew, Shiney!

 

 

[h2odawg79]

and he's LFF like me too!

 

[thager]

LMAO!!

[Steven_Haines]

Mount those bad boys on a plate and do the @eleeski Gatorade lid release!

Eric,

Are u ever going to post a pic of ur release system? It sounds like it would work!