Leading and Trailing Arm - for the last time ever

[Horton]

Loading the trailing arm (left arm going to 1/3/5) was an idea a few years ago that if you had more power in your “Trailing Arm”* you would move your mass forward. It works like a charm on the dock and a longer ling lengths. In fact it might still be a great idea for 15 – 28 off skiers.

 

I do not know any shortline skier today who understands the mechanics and still thinks this is a good idea. In my opinion this was an unfortunate and ill advised fad. I am sure if you search back far enough in this forum you will find example of me encouraging it. I was wrong. It is the wrong idea. Sorry I learned it from a top coach – he was wrong.

*Trailing Arm =Left arm if heading to 1 ball

 

Does anyone who runs 38 off and beyond disagree? Please tell me if I am way off on this

 

Again this is in "Advanced Topics" so if you think you belong in this group please fill your profile out all the way and shoot me a message.

[Horton]

FYI- I am talking about from the centerline out.

[Klundell]

I tried the back arm pressure thing for a while and abandoned it quickly. Doesn't make sense to load the back arm when you want your center of mass moving forward. I think this is analogous to a batting coach telling a hitter to stay on his back foot. It's coached all the time (to prevent other problems) but not something that is actually done when you watch a professional hitter almost all of them have shifted their center of mass toward the ball and are completely on their front foot when they hit the ball.

[The_MS]

If I think about back arm going from wake to the ball, I dont get into the reverse C and tend to pull my other hand of the handle too quick and end up short of the ball or narrow. I do try to think about it going into the wakes in order to gain and maintain momentum off the wakes towards the ball.

[Horton]

@ms when you say back arm you mean right arm going to 1/3/5 ?

[A_B]

I will reference a great article by @brucebutterfield, here on BOS at the bottom.

 

My thought on leading arm pressure is that after centerline, if it is held past the second wake, it will not allow for maximum width to the ball. The handle has to be pinned to your hip, as BB article points out, but some of the load gets transferred to the trailing arm (Left going into 1 ball). I will throw out that the load is 60/40 leading to trailing as you enter the wakes, and then in reverse after the second wake. The arms are bent, and there has to be more pressure on the trailing arm to keep riding the arc out as wide as possible. I am not talking about switching the majority of the force to the trailing arm, or taking your lead hand off or just le it go for a free ride on the handle. There is still work and angle to be maintained.

 

I watched Kerrie McClure run an awesome 38 pass last summer from the end of the lake, and she transferred so much to trailing arm that it looked like she was counter rotating after the second wake to the left for a split second, then coutered to the right going into one ball. That brief counter was giving her added ride out to the ball.

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/tech-articles/87-what-the-heck-is-handle-control

[jimbrake]

@Klundell - not to get off on a ball hitting tangent, but you are confusing a baseball swing with a golf swing. A golf swing finishes with weight distributed nearly entirely on the front foot. A baseball swing braces against the front leg, but does not result in a large weight transfer to the front foot. Whatever, right?

 

Anyway, I don't intend to make myself out as a huge proponent of trailing arm pressure over lead arm pressure, but you certainly can rotate your COM forward while maintaining trailing arm pressure. As you are heading right into 1, you can rotate your COM forward by facing the boat or facing down the rope (move your right hip towards #1 and maintaining trailing arm load. This keeps you driving mass forward. As you change edges, the rotation changes as you begin to rotate the other way into a countered position heading into 1. Still maintaining a connection through your trailing, soon to be reaching arm. None of this is to say you don't keep load on the lead arm too. You do. I couldn't say what % on which arm, but being aware of load on the trail arm before, through, and beyond the edge change is a good thing that keeps you moving forward coming into the centerline and connected with a tight line through and especially beyond your edge change.

[The_MS]

Back arm meaning my shoulder that is furthest away from the boat. The right arm going to 1.

I need to keep the load balanced between both arms after the wake and concentrate on soft knees and keeping 2 hands on the handle as long as I can.

Prior to the wake, I tend to load my trailing arm.

[Klundell]

@jimbrake

almost all of these guys have their back foot completely off of the ground when they make contact with the ball. That tells me 100% of their weight is on the front foot. I think this is an important point because sometimes what we teach and what is really happening are two different things. I think that was the case with back arm pressure.

[jimbrake]

FKNA. I knew that was a mistake to post that. Their hip rotation pulls their back heel off the ground momentarily, but they are not standing on/balanced over their front foot. They are braced against it. Anyway, my point was that you can move COM forward and have trailing arm pressure. I think you have both, but moving COM forward does not require lead arm pressure.

[bishop8950]

I try to keep balanced pressure in both arms, and am working on slightly more pressure in my leading arm (right into 1/3) because I think it helps me move over my feet, reverse C, ski kicked out, all that stuff. If I load my trailing arm I feel even more likely to be behind my feet/ski which is a key bad default for me already.

 

Last season as I worked on loading up my leading arm I found myself dropping that (right) shoulder going through the wakes into 1. So my highest priority is to stay level, then over my feet which leading arm pressure helps, and then to make sure I am "off the gas" by the center line but strong through the foam.

 

Not saying this is the only or best way to skin a cat, just what I am doing

[Horton]

@bishop8950 sounds wise to me

[A_B]

@Horton, you are skiing right now and just getting the rust off. So for S&G, on your next gate, try a slight turn to the left and transfer some weight to your left hand on your hip, think about it around the second wake so it happens slightly after, and see if you don't get wider and earlier at one ball. Nothing to lose at this point in the season. You game?

[Horton]

@AB I will try it again but I worked on similar stuff years ago. I know it feels good on the dock but I have never seen it work at short rope.

[A_B]

That's the spirit! Just kidding. Skiing is still a form of artistic expression, so more than one way to skin a cat.

 

I think the slight shift or equal loading helps keep the shoulders level. I am not sure how loading up the leading arm will keep the shoulders level, as mine always drops lower than the trailing. Most pros are not level either. Maybe it is in the heat of the battle when we go all out, the tendancy to gain leverage and lock it in trumps balance and position?

 

We always said point your junk where you want to go, so I am, and always have been a leading arm loader. At my weight last year, ZO wasn't so freindly when I loaded late. I played around with the slight shift to left arm into one ball after watching McClure, and it seemed to work into one ball, then I forgot to do it the rest of the course.. duh.

 

Nelly Ross contorts her body in incredible fashion, and she keeps her shoulders level, but her lower body is twisted and pointed 90 degrees and makes my old bones hurt just watching it.

[Horton]

@AB I love Drew and Nelly is a doll but I do not want to ski in that position. I would guess as she gets older her skiing will evolve a lot.

[A_B]

Kristi O stayed more open to the boat and level, but I can't think of many top pros that are level. I think the key to to GET level after the second wake. If the leading shoulder stays down too long, you have to be pulled narrow. Maybe that is the confusion. ?

[bishop8950]

Hardly anyone is actually level. Leading shoulder is often or almost always lower. But in my head, I am trying for level and realize its not.

[A_B]

The Mapple and Parrish side by side video is very good to freeze frame and see how they stack up. AM definetly has chest up and leading shoulder down. CP is just butt strong, so more level.

When the arms are bent after second wake and in, that is when you can't get lean-locked with the leading shoulder down. Maybe it is just a perception thing. The top guys get it and the rest of us need to make it our brain dead mode.

[ForrestGump]

I think the below thread had some information applicable to this discussion in it from @MarcusBrown. He talks about keeping the hips and shoulder facing the boat all the way out to the handle release, which my pea brain perceives to only be possible by increasing the load in the trailing arm. Also about how trailing arm(in this case, he mentions reaching arm) pressure outbound causes the skier to unwind at the handle release. It's also mentioned in it that Jamie B teaches the same thing. What I think a lot of people would like explained to them, is just how much this load in the trailing arm increases. Are the elite skiers who teach and implement this taking 75% of the load in their trailing arm? Are they meaning they are just equalizing the load into the trailing arm? I think this is where we mortals get sidetracked. Because I think we hear "increase load in trailing arm" and our brains think "take ALL the load in our trailing arm". And I don't think, but don't know for sure, that is what's meant.

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/6769/anyone-understand-what-smith-is-doing-in-this-image/p1

 

(EDIT)Ok, and then as I read up from what I just posted, I see that Bruce Butterfield had expanded on that same topic with just what he considers those percentages to be.

[ral]

@Horton, when you mention "from the centerline out" in your clarification, are you implying it it is a good thing to do from the buoy to the centerline?

[skiep]

Trailing arm connection? So this is wrong??

[Horton]

@Ral @skiep

 

At this point I am asking not suggesting

 

I have been trying to add power to my right hand past the center line going to one ball. I hold the opinion of @MatthewBrown in VERY high regard and think I understand that he is recommending that I would have more power in my left hand at this point.

 

I know less now than I know when I started this thread

 

[Ed_Johnson]

I agree with Matt and Marcus...Think of it this way, when you cast the ski out for the Reverse C, your goal is for the ski to create a larger arc than the handle, out to the apex, especially at short line lengths. Therefore, your Angular Momentum is in an outbound direction to get maximum width...The trailing arm is simply the pivot point to allow this to happen on the way to a countered position. Thus keeping the trailing Lat flexed, and the handle tight to your side, allows this to happen.

[Horton]

I just talked to Seth. Now I am more confused.

[bishop8950]

@Horton don't think so much, grip it and rip it!

 

I slightly over load my right arm (into the gate) to help me move over my feet. Not sure that would work for every reader on this forum. I feel like if I load my left arm I fall back and behind my feet. Matt kicks my butt every round and he knows more than me. I just wonder if there is a "right" answer or there is some choice available?

 

I also wonder if Matt has 51% or 99% in his left arm. Probably something in between.

 

Seth and Matt would be two of my favorites to ask for help. If you sort out a clear description let me know

[ForrestGump]

One thing I've noticed over the end of last season and the beginning of this one is that if I load the leading arm, my shoulders have a tendancy to move over the ski rather than the ski moving underneath me.

[Horton]

actually what he said was helpful. Seth stated the obvious that it's not a black and white answer and that is a matter of perspective. What he said was wise but it doesn't help me with my personal skiing. Darn it I need to get out of Bakersfield and go skiing with the boys up north.

[bishop8950]

@Horton, Come on up!

[Sethski]

Horton, sorry I took so long to post. Perfect explanation is as you said in my opinion...it is not black and white.

 

I have three main points in my opinion 1-We are dynamic! And 2-The tips, articles, etc. don't handle this one because it is specific to each Skier's current situation. 3-Trends in all sports confuse the general public and get misconstrued over time,

 

To explain my points:

1-DYNAMIC:

We are moving around a central point (which is also moving down the lake at a high rate of speed). When moving around that central point, the forces on our bodies, the ski, and the rope constantly change. We have to be dynamic to move the ski through and out and ride it back in through the turn. Doesn't it make sense that there is no simple answer based on this.

 

Personally, I try to increase my trailing arm pressure as I approach the center of the wakes because it ACTUALLY DOES help me keep my center of mass moving with the ski so that I don't approach the wakes with the ski already shoved too far out in front of me. None of this is to say that I don't have pressure on my leading arm. In fact I have a lot of pressure on my leading arm, but if I am not dynamic as I approach the center of the wakes, I will be stuck on the leading shoulder and my upper body will block my lower body from making an efficient transition. IMPORTANT NOTE (and often overlooked and misunderstood), I DO NOT GIVE UP PRESSURE ON MY LEADING ARM IN ORDER TO PUT PRESSURE ON MY TRAILING ARM...that would be a loss of power as the load from the boat is increasing. I add the trailing arm pressure for grater power overall. Additionally, the pressure should be close to equal at the centerline as I am now directly behind the force that is pulling me.

 

As I transition out to the apex of the turn, I keep pressure on the trailing arm, but that pressure is exerted in a different way...as the ski moves out to the turning edge, I find it important to keep the handling moving with me, so I add some outbound pressure to the handle, but I am also simultaneously trying to ski through my leading arm (right arm going to 1-3-5) which keeps a great deal of pressure on the leading arm. However, at that point I (my personal approach) am not leaning super heavily on the leading arm because I then fear that when I release the handle I will suddenly be pulled to the inside.

 

As stated before, this is my approach. Doesn't mean that it is 100% correct. I have purposely not listed the exact details of what I believe to be the magic percentage of arm pressure on each arm, etc. There is so much more to it than we can hash through on a message board (well, at least for me, because it is 80 and sunny here and I'd rather be outside).

 

2-SKIER SPECIFIC:

In my opinion, you can't make a blanket statement of which arm should have the pressure at a specific point. At the point in our skiing where we begin to think about such detailed/advanced topics, we have established our own specific stance, our own style, etc. Tips related to back arm pressure, trailing arm pressure, leading arm pressure, etc. MUST BE SKIER SPECIFIC. Anyone who attempts to tell you exactly how to do this without watching you ski is a bit naive and perhaps even arrogant. Yes, I just said that. Waterski coaching is based on you! It is not always based wholly on ultimate ideals! We are humans and in a perfect world there may be a perfect way to do all of this, but since we aren't in that perfect world, the coaching needs to be skier specific. Skier A may be told they need to put pressure on the leading arm, and in the very next set, his friend Skier B may be told he needs pressure on his trailing arm (both from the same coach). IT MUST BE SKIER SPECIFIC!

 

3-THE TRENDS...

I am currently writing an article (as usual, wrought with opinion) on the fallacies created through each new trend or hot idea in waterskiing (or sport in general). To my point, when a skier goes and skis with a coach that promotes a specific new technique, the ideas presented by that coach may be presented as very logical information and as it is passed on from the student to his local waterski disciples when he gets home, it is often misconstrued. My favorite is the way that I use dot meet new skiers who would prelude their ski set by telling me they were trying to ski WEst Coast Style and when I watched them ski, I realized that the only thing they were trying to do was squat down low. That is not a West Coast idea or anything that aids in the physics of slalom skiing. Does that mean that the ideas and principles of that trend/style of skiing were wrong? Hell no.

 

Trends and new ideas are often created to address the most prevalent errors in waterskiing at that time. "Counter rotation" is another one that was/is misconstrued at times. The concept holds true today and held true 50 years ago before it had a name, but many people now "fake it" by swinging their outside shoulder back because this is what they came to understand it to mean.

 

My point is, don't fall prey to taking the latest and greatest and make it the "NEW THEME OF YOUR SLALOM SKIING". Rather, take the new ideas and extrapolate the real meat of the information and decide how you can apply that to your skiing, but don't blindly decide you are going to now throw all of the load on your leading arm because you read an article by Nate that describes pressure on that leading arm. By the same token, if I write an article about trying to keep your shoulders SOMEWHAT level, don't go out and tell all of your buddies that you read an article that says your shoulders MUST be level through the wakes. Neither of these scenarios are wholly true.

 

Just my two cents...

 

By the way, I think there are some great points and discussions within this thread. The answer is probably that no single one of us or single idea is true. Use your brain, your experience, some coaching, some video, some of the ideas on this site, etc. and put it all together so you can still be you when you ski.

 

Hope everyone is having a great spring...love this sport!

[A_B]

@Horton, I hope your thread title is somewhat in jest. Talking about this in the future can only help us understand it better. Sharing info can only help make us all better, which makes the sport better. This is definetly not a black and white concept!

[Sethski]

I agree with Al! Good stuff...none of it is black and white whether it is this topic or others. The ideas getting thrown around help us all grow at what we do. Fun stuff. I wish I had time to be on here more often.

[Horton]

@sethski your point #3: I think everyone needs to be reminded of that. It is so true.

[DUSkier]

I think that one thing a lot of people are forgetting is that 2 different actions can have a very similar effect, my thought being that trailing or leading arm pressure will achieve the same result i.e. keeping shoulders heading outbound.

I'm also very interested in @sethski thoughts on what type of skier to promote leading/trailing arm to? As a coach I am very Skier specific but have not managed to pick up on this principal for different skiers.

Personally I am favoring trailing arm only slightly (70-30 maybe less) as it seems to give me a better/ smoother edge change. With Leading arm I felt I got lean locked and could not get off leaning edge making for a very ugly edge change.

[ForrestGump]

Skied with Seth yesterday and this concept and this thread came up while we were out on the water. In comparison to last year, I'm skiing a lot better. More angle. More space. More speed. Arcing up higher on the boat. All good things. BUT......... I've been struggling this spring to get the ski to arc outward into 2/4/6(offside). I didn't have this issue when I was skiing farther back on the boat. Now, I've been getting these awesome 1 balls with awesome angle and intensity into the first wake and then I come off the second wake and can only stand there. The end result is I'm losing the boat on my offside. So Seth had me squeeze my trailing elbow into my core at centerline. I didn't take any load away from the leading arm. Just increased the tension in the trailing elbow. My perception is that this simple move helps to unhinge the hips so they and the ski move out rather than get trapped between the boat and shoulders. When I did it successfully last night and today, the move out of my body and ski became very dynamic and I was never in one spot for any length of time. The ski moved out, I fell inside the turning arc with my body in line between my bindings and the pylon, the ski comes back under me cleanly, and then the load picks up smoothly. This was pretty exciting for me. I can run 35, but not badly. I've got to get a good start. And get lucky. So beginning to figure out how to initiate this is what I needed to be able to get the consistency I need at 35. So I can start getting honest shots at 38.

[Drago]

3-year bump. Nate Smith ( pretty good skier) talking about trailing arm in the Water Ski mag article.