Holding position thru the wakes

[disland]

I am giving up some of my lean at the wake. I am looking for drills or tips to help fix this.

[disland]

Check this out. Andy has his elbows still on his vest almost at the second spray and he going 36

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Yt9aRCxEg&utm_source=Mapple+Skis&utm_campaign=033f213064-Mapple_Skis_March_Newsletter&utm_medium=email

[aswinter05]

I too would be interested in hearing some tips on this topic.

[gregy]

@disland what level skier are you? You have any videos of yourself?

[The_MS]

On the 35 pass, I like how Andy comes into the ball low with the handle and as he sends his off the handle hand/arm back in the air, his handle hand comes back up higher. I think it gives a bit of momentum to the counter and makes it easier to ski back to the handle.

[Stevie Boy]

Hey, reference the video, just my thoughts, both of them keep a lot of ski in the water through the back of the boat, by keeping their weight central or over the front of the ski, the ski maintains direction and a hold on the water, if your weight moves back or you get left behind when the ski accelerates, you are more likely to get pulled off edge.

[Stevie Boy]

@OB Did say it was just my thoughts, you do not have to like them, if you want direction, you cannot get that by being on the back of the ski, the surface area at the back of the ski is less, so least resistance, so there,s less chance of maintaining direction, if thats a load of bull, then I guess you will have to section me.

[h2odawg79]

@disland,

 

I like Hard Core Dry land Lean/Pull Drills in various positions to remind me to stay down and powerful. (it's important not to tie the Rope too High off the ground. 27" works well for me) On the water, two things would be to do some Open water Lean Drills on each side of the boat. Do a "Pull Out" and then just keep leaning. Get as far up on the boat as humanly possible 5 times and then do the other side.

 

#2. Now take the Dry land and the Water drills and put them both to use in Open Water, doing some Hard core whip drills. Do as many wake crossings as you can with a solid, stacked pull position. With NO concerns of any Buoys, you should be able to stay down in your fully leveraged position...

[6balls]

@h20dawg79 if I get into a lean like that...something bad is about to happen!

[h2odawg79]

@6balls,

 

Ha, ha Agreed! It's a bit over Kill I know, but it's a Killer way to prepare for my little battle with 300+ hp!

 

Ironically, you can really "Feel" Arm Pres. and Wgt. distibution while Hangin' out like this. And talk about a Smokin' Quad conditioner! 30 second drills are killer after about 8-10 times.

[disland]

@h2odawg79 Thanks. Love the photo. Been doing the pull out drill , now I will add the whip

[ski6jones]

My ankles, hips and shoulders are usually out of line in the other direction when I ski.

[BraceMaker]

@h2odawg79 - I have one on my post -

 

There is a video in the trick ski section of a guy on a swiveling platform that is mounted on a plate that rocks. The rope then goes through a pulley up to a weighted bar with a spring.

 

Looks pretty slick, the user can pivot left or right. By putting the feet on a flat plate that is mounted below the center line of the pivot you have to pull to force the plate on edge between you and the post.

 

That's on my future fabrication list.

[h2odawg79]

@BraceMaker,

 

Sweeeet! I'll look that up.

 

I've have a couple of idea's for a tilting and swiveling platform. But, I just keep putting off doing it... Aside from the bonus of the swivel aspect, I'd Love to simply add some angle for the feet to better replicate the entire edge and Body angles. -Procrastination is a killer! ;-[

[BraceMaker]

@h2odawg79 - I just checked the thread.

 

The videos are broken! http://ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/4581/this-is-one-reason-why-eastern-european-trickers-are-so-good

 

@Brent posted one of a trick skier on a treadmill

 

@ToddF posted the slalom skier lean mechanism.

 

@MattP - can you check to see if there is a reason all the videos died in this thread? It was 3 of the coolest training videos I have seen. If the links just got hidden it would be cool if they got fixed!

[BraceMaker]

And yes I tried google chrome.

[MattP]

@BraceMaker I know that there was a forum upgrade that did away with the embedded code from youtube. @Horton is looking into it with the developers. I will resurrect the videos in that thread.

[MattP]

@BraceMaker they are alive now.

[h2odawg79]

@rico,

 

I'll take it anywhere I can get it! Liv. rm., Trailor hitch, Tree, on the water in the course, free skiing, etc... (some of us don't have quite as much on the water ski access as others)

 

I illustrate that particular "overly exaggerated" example b/c SOOOOOOOOOoooooo Many guys tie the Rope too frickin' High and NEVER EVER learn to "Fall Back" properly into a solid lean with their arms out straight and there Hips up with the Core fully engaged. -they barely lean & basically stand upright and wonder why they never get it...

 

Ummm, and it was inconjunction with a couple of other drills. NOT meant to be the Miracle cure all

 

I love the Critique though

[BraceMaker]

I'll try to move that video over here now its fixed.

[BraceMaker]

NM just follow the link... embed is not how I remembered it.

[MattP]

@BraceMaker all you have to do is copy and paste the link to the video on youtube and it will embed itself in the forum. There is no need for the embed code through youtube.

 

I think this is the video you were looking for

http://youtu.be/alninjRr1Fk

[h2odawg79]

 

@disland, do what ever works for you. Progression is the objective. But, it is a Tug of War with 300hp and you need to be able to fall back quickly (Lock & Load) into a Great Leveraged position to utilize those 300hp's and not be spanked!

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

ah, cool. I'm more familiar with the vbb boards, this vanilla is so modern.

[MattP]

@h2odog79 Lock and Load? What is this the 70's? That also looks like a 10 year old pic of Wade Cox?

[h2odawg79]

@Bracemaker, ya Man! I like it! The angle is SOoooooooooo much better then trying to hold the position on Carpet! The one thing that I would change is the counter wgt. to increase the "Fall Back" Speed a little...

 

I have a Hvy Bungee attached to the Rope and it takes up the slack at the start to middle. This allows me to "Fall Back" at literally a "Free Fall". I like this, b/c there's no wussy footin' around when I practice my drop into my Stacked position! I don't want to ingrain a slow controlled drop, I want it dynamic and CORE-tastic!

 

Thx for posting!!!

 

Thx @MattP for the technical help!

[BraceMaker]

I've been debating the easiest way to pull this off.

 

What I've come up with so far is to use a set of fixed caster wheels so that the wheel is bolted to a frame so the bracket can be bolted to a plate which would then "swing" it has to be below center of course so you don't break your ankles.

 

I debated the pivot mechanism, I think it opens up some possibilities, would be neat if you encorporated some form of teeter/balance point, but will definately require some work so the initial is the swing and the power arm.

 

I keep seeing "bowflex" for the resistance, and have been looking for a used one I could dismantle so you can add variable amounts of resistance to the load. Weight would be easier, but I'm looking for that wall you can build up against, where as a fixed weight will let you keep on going over. Fixed weight and a bungee...

[h2odawg79]

Good stuff!

I think you just need to limit the Travel of the wgt. and/or the travel of the platform to keep from going on over. There are also some seriously strong workout bungees available. I believe they might eliminate the need for a counter wgt. Mine works pretty well and I only have one incorporated.

 

I have a full basement and I utilize the post on my spiral staircase. But, to build a bonafide pull apparatus, I would either have to set/break it down everytime, trip over it continuously or convert a rm. into a pulling station! That is why I have been so lazy at moving fwd with some trial runs...

 

Another thought is, I do several different Dry land drills with my set up and as is, I have the freedom to move around a bit. Man, if I could have one of those at the Gym!!! -Rainy or windy days, No driver days, rest days!!! (of course, I kinda do that now)

[SkiJay]

Water Skiing Simulators

I have researched and pursued simulator training extensively throughout my racing career. I've written papers on the subject and last year I even did some consulting work for the team building Toyota Racing Development's multi-million dollar state-of-the-art driving simulator for their NASCAR teams.

 

There are essentially two levels of sim training, visual training and physical training. Visual training is the easier of the two and it involves training the subconscious to react to visual inputs. You can work on things like timing, rhythm, direction, and situational awareness (you see a video of a corner approaching, you turn the steering wheel, and the display shows you going around the corner--but you feel no G forces).

 

Then there is physical simulation, where you physically interact with a dynamic environment to train the subconscious to react to 3D physical forces and to expect certain physical outcomes from given inputs (you turn the steering wheel and experience a proportionately correct amount of lateral Gs, including incidental loads from bumps and dips laser mapped from the actual track--very expensive to simulate).

 

You guys are essentially talking about developing a physical simulator for water skiing which is probably more complex than a racing simulator, using rubber bands and pulleys, and there is a risk to this approach. You are not going to come anywhere remotely close to simulating the incredibly complex and dynamic relationship that a skier has with his ski, the water, and a boat during a pass.

 

How do you simulate softening the knees for an edge change through 3D wakes, or the G loads experienced while free of the boat in a pre-turn, or the way the ski reacts to putting too much weight on the tip? It simply can't be done without many tens of millions of dollars plus years of R&D.

 

Here's the hitch - If you practice doing something wrong, you are programming yourself to do it wrong--automatically. A bad physical simulator is more likely to screw you up than help you. And the more you use it, the more damage you are doing.

 

When it comes to physical training for water skiing, you are better off getting a professional trainer who understands how to train your strength, balance and movements in a way that will best support your on-water practice. Then hone your skiing skills by doing the real thing with a body that is properly prepared to cash the checks your mind is trying to write.

[h2odawg79]

WOW! Winter time is taking it's toll... So, I'm game, lets play!

 

1st of all, I Love thinking OUTSIDE of the box. Not just going along with the spineless crowd...

 

2nd This type of "Training" is NOT A SKIING SIMULATOR, it is basically covering ONE ASPECT and 1 aspect ONLY. -Getting comfortable and fluid with the unnatural dynamic of Hooking up and falling back into a FULLY Leveraged position. Building Trust that allows the body to fall back, arms that fully extend, a Core that Fully engages, a Handle that goes directly to the Hip, Hips up, Chest out and it all happens AUTOMATICALLY w/o fail, with a little practice...

 

Lastly, if I were a typical "Name dropper" (to somehow try to make myself look better) I would name names of Pro's whom I KNOW Promote these same Dry land Pull Drills for these very same reasons!

 

But, to each his own.

 

Forums are such fun! They always bring out the critical minded Cynics.

What is it that rises up so Quickly in Man and bolsters judgement, condemnation and contention!?!? While diplomacy and encouragement too often elludes him...

 

 

[Stevie Boy]

I know a guy who, used to spend most of his Sundays, in the back garden, with a ski line tied to a tree, carrying out leaning drills, really good skier, but now divorced.

[Horton]

Let me just go in record as saying I can not endorse 90% of is written in this thread. @Disland's original question has merit but most of these comments above are enthusiastic and but ill informed. I do not know of any shortline skier that spends much if any time doing dry land slalom drills. Slalom is totally dynamic. Static drills may be well intentioned and may pass the time but have very limited value.

 

@disland I have to wonder if your stack is what is should be before the first wake. If not I would suggest going backwards to the hookup or the apex to see where things actually fall apart. In other words if you finish the turn in a strong position you should be in as strong position at the second wake.

 

Any time you identify a problem in your skiing the cause is generally 37.5 feet earlier.

 

 

[disland]

@horton I am reluctant to start showing pictures but here we go. Before the wake and then at the wake.

 

 

[Horton]

"Tug of War with 300hp and you need to be able to fall back quickly (Lock & Load) into a Great Leveraged position to utilize those 300hp's"

 

This may be the single most dubious piece of advice I have ever read on this site. @h2odawg79 I appreciate your enthusiasm but I believe your concepts outdated

[Horton]

@disland In that first image your shoulders are ahead of your hips and the handle is out. I am going to guess that we need to go back farther to find the root.

[ForrestGump]

Were it me, I'd back up all the way to the beginning. My guess is your body position deficiency starts before you even get to the 55k buoys.

[disland]

Thanks guys. Once we get this little cold spell behind us I can get to work

[h2odawg79]

@Horton, and I thought the "Trailing arm" then "Leading arm" then "equal pres" was the most dubious...

 

I Love to call it a "Tug of War" NOT b/c you, me or anyone does a turn and Burn like the old days, BUT, b/c if your not in a Proper LEVERAGED (stacked) Position, the 300+ hps will Pull you UP & OUT. -just Like a Tug of War...

 

Thus, you are Not USING (Utilizing) the 300hp, (efficiency) instead they are ABUSING You

 

Sorry for not using a more Fashionable adjective.

 

 

[disland]

what the hec, here you all go. bring it on but be kind. It is March, but I am trying to start fresh this season.

[disland]

[ForrestGump]

@disland The instant you start to roll out your butt drops behind and your shoulders go ahead. Stop it at 4 seconds in and see what I'm talking about. A good exercise I've seen Charles Mueller give people is to have the boat drive at speed and you pull out left and hold that lean out all the way down the lake against the pull of the boat. Do it on both sides until you can get over both feet with the shoulders AND hips. When you are centered with shoulders back and hips up, the boat will pull you along even though you're leaning against it. When you have your hips back, or shoulders forward, or you're on your back foot, the ski will drag like it's got an anchor and the boat will try to pull you inbound.

[disland]

Thanks guys

[disland]

@ShaneH I think this is the drill you describe. Please comment

 

[A_B]

Are you chewing gum?

Slalom and gum chewing don't mix.

[BraceMaker]

I agree with @skijay but here is the hitch.

 

I see that apparatus not as a lean strengthener or a slalom simulator. But as a way to precondition the body/vestibular system and work on positional cues, so that when you do hit the water you aren't as prone to lean back and pull. I have a balance board set with a pivot under the front foot to work on this too.

 

[SkiJay]

@Disland I'm going to guess that you've had some experience with lean-locking into the wakes then going out the front. If this is the case, it might explain your defensive posture into the wakes. Fixing an habitual defensive reaction can be tough and may require some, or even lots of, drill time. If you do whips as demonstrated by Seth Stisher below, you can reduce the risk of OTFs and focus on your posture and move through the wakes.

 

Your posture approaching the wakes is not bad, though probably a bit static, so all you have to do for starters with the whips is to maintain a similar lean and posture through the wakes. The way you move through the wakes is not so good. Your feet and hips should be moving out in front of you by the second wake, and yours look to be stuck behind you (which btw is the perfect setup for an OTF). Doing whips almost forces you to work on the timing and rhythm of moving your hips ahead through the wakes.

 

Here's a photo of Seth at the same point behind the boat as you are in your photo. Note how much more his hips have moved ahead of the load than yours have at the same point, and he's not giving up much lean or acceleration at all. Seth's position is bullet proof. Nothing bad can happen from the position he is in. If you can find this position, you'll forget the wakes are even there. The whip drill should help you discover this efficient movement through the wakes.

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1530989/Waterskiing/BOS/_dos3888.jpg

 

 

[disland]

@skijay awesome thanks

[thompjs]

Harder than it looks!

 

Seth is a noodle!

[disland]

needless to say after posting this ugly display @horton wont be promoting me to the advanced tab.

[Than_Bogan]

@disland ... yet!

 

Everybody ahead of you has been where you are.