Calipers for those that have money burning holes in their pockets

[DanE]

http://www.axiomtool.com/axiom/

Looks really sweet though

[ral]

I would buy one at 40% of the current selling price. Not more than that.

[Waternut]

Man what is the price of that beast? I didn't see it on the site.

 

One thing that worries me is, it may become the standard method like the slot calipers which kind of forces you into using it if you want to duplicate the factory settings.

[ral]

@Waternut, a mere $499. Do not know if shipping is included or not.

[jrs]

I don't think the price is out of line. This product measures all 3 directions of your fin at the same time and without removing your wing. It is made with 3 calipers (1 Slot Caliper is $150). Comes with fin gauges and tools. With this device, you can see that when you change say depth, what does that do to your length and DFT. This makes it real easy to change only one direction at a time. I also like that if someone quotes their settings and I want to try that exact setting, I can set the Axiom to those numbers, lock it, and simply move the fin up against the 3 tips. It uses a micro SD memory card to store all your settings and your ski partners as well.

[Waternut]

It may not be out of line for what it is and offers but for the average joe, out of reach and unnecessary may be a more suitable phrase. For a ski manufacturer, this is absolutely worth it without a doubt in my mind.

 

Maybe I could subsidize my skiing during the government furloughs with a fin adjustment service for $20-$30. haha

[jrs]

Good idea @Waternut

[SkiJay]

@jrs "...I also like that if someone quotes their settings and I want to try that exact setting, I can set the Axiom to those numbers, lock it, and simply move the fin up against the 3 tips."

 

I've played with one and though it's close, it doesn't return the exact same numbers as either a standard or a slot caliper. That being said, it would be easy enough to establish the difference between your personal calipers and the Axiom for all three measurements, then apply the variance to any number sharing.

[ral]

@jrs, I think it is a conceptually a great tool and looks well executed. Real time adjustment is very nice as well. Would have to try to see how it works.

 

In my view, though, at that price point it is not going to float a lot. A great tool for a ski manufacturer as @Waternut states, but not too many of these out there... Also a potential great tool for coaches, but do not know if too many coaches out there would put that kind of money on one.

 

The fact of not getting an exact Factory Setting is one factor against it, and not a minor one IMHO. For me, that factor alone would put off any time savings you can achieve with the tool.

 

I do save my settings in my Iphone, which is w/me all the time. Again, the SD card might be useful for a ski manufacturer or coach.

 

Bottom line, I think that price point is testing the elasticity of the demand at its limits. I think that a lot more would be sold at aUS$ 200-250 price point.

[DW]

Cool idea. There will still be variation for DFT across skis as the contact point for the tail can rest on a curved section of the ski and not necessarily the same spot as other caliper options or any of the available fin measuring fixtures available that catch the entire thickness of the tail, eg: the E-Z Fin tool.

[jrs]

@ral, I know the inventor and his cost is being driven by manufacturing cost with skiing being a small market. I remember when the slot caliper didn't sell much either, then a few Big Dawg skiers and Goode Skis started reporting their numbers with the slot calipers and everyone had to have one. The supplier couldn't keep up at one point. I see this going the same way because I know the guys that are getting the first units.

 

@DW, The Axiom measures from the true back of the ski, not along any curve. This was a suggestion because of all the variations in calipers measuring DFT. I know the next thought is "this is way off of what we do now for DFT". Yes, that is correct it's different and it's also repeatable. This will clearly change the DFT number you are use to seeing. But, every Axiom will measure the same while every other caliper brand will measure something else. Why should we have calipers displaying 4 or 5 places behind the decimal when the head of each caliper is different and producing inconsistent numbers for DFT? Sorry, the engineer in me wants everything to be consistent. Time will tell if this product gets adopted as a standard. To me, skiing is what I do and enjoy everyday. The cost of high-end tools to gain another buoy is something myself and many others in our sport just accept.

[smilinjim]

@jrs, thanks for jumping in to clarify things. I'll work on getting some videos of Axiom in action posted. That should clear up a number of questions.

[Waternut]

The slot caliper definitely changed the way we measure and you have to know how your ski manufacturer got their measurements when setting up your ski. Goode measures length with their slot caliper base and Radar tells you to measure with the caliper tips. Radar was trying to explain where on the back of the ski they measure from last year and I think I understood but wasn't 100% positive. If ski manufacturers start publishing their measurements with the Axiom, I don't know if you'll see the same market demand as the slot caliper had. I certainly won't. I'd probably just tweak the fin until I think it's where it should be rather than pay that kind of money. The slot caliper may be expensive but at least you can still use it for everything else like bolts, engines, etc. The Axiom is a bit more specialized. For the super fin tweaker, it may be useful but that's about the only personal purchase I could think of.

[jrs]

@Waternut, addiction makes people do crazy things ;) I know a lot of addicted slalom skiers that will pay anything to get their fix (one more buoy).

[The_MS]

The problem with the slot caliper is that we are on the second generation slot caliper. The 1 and 2 will give you different Length numbers. Every time the slot manufacturer runs out of product, he must order new ones and at that point he has to hope the previous caliper he was using is still available. If not, you will get different length numbers reported by the users.

[jrs]

Good point @MS. That is a problem with all the calipers out there. Axiom has it's own "tip" that will be the same every time they make a manufacturing run.

[The_MS]

If I had the cash I would get one but I am stuck with my 20.00 caliper from Harbor Freight.

[Waternut]

Well I've kind of been hiding my solution for slot calipers figuring I would catch flak due to my version having slight differences from the real version. However, if production run 1 and 2 of the slot calipers are different, I don't feel so bad that my custom harbor freight calipers with a well placed slot in them might read slightly different from the real thing anymore.

[jrs]

@Waternut, I did the same thing with a bunch of high-end digital calipers. I had the shop cut them with a wire EDM. They work well but like @MS said the head of each caliper was different, so the numbers were not all the same. Now, if everyone would pony up and buy an Axiom, we won't have these issues. ;)

[MattP]

@jrs man I can't even get people to buy a .99c phone application... Good luck.

I would buy one if I could afford it, but this college kid has to eat and ski first and not always in that order. Also bought myself a slot caliper as a Christmas present to myself.

 

What would the price be with out the fin gauges and tools? I feel like most if not all skiers who would be buying this product would already own them. I know I own more allen wrenches then I know what to do with. It would cut down on cost some and make it a little more attractive. While I think it is cool to have it all there, its not really needed.

[DW]

@jrs: thanks for the clarification, but the picture clearly shows the Axiom not capturing the entire vertical surface of the ski tail on the website. That is where my comment comes from.

 

The DFT measurement is not at all consistent across calipers / methodologies / ski brands (and I would argue skis for that matter, so it is a process that still needs fine tuning. Each brand has adopted a process that works for them.

[WskierMan]

@DW I have seen one in person, and I promise that the axiom does capture the entire vertical of the tail of the ski. Pictures can be deceiving.

I have a feeling that the axiom will eventually become the staple for fin measurement for all serious competitors in our sport, it makes fin adjustments a luxury rather than a hassle.

[thager]

Unless a caliper is calibrated to a standard any two calipers will read differently one against the other.

[Horton]

@MS

 

If you measure with tips it is all the same

[SkiJay]

There's WAY too much fuss made about accuracy to .001" in the context of sharing numbers. Factor in variables like caliper brand, different ways of measuring (jaws vs. tips etc.), different techniques (tips down in the fin slot vs. tips straddling the fin slot etc.), ski manufacturing tolerances (fin depth is usually different on the opposite side of the same ski's fin etc). Even the Axiom I played with was capable of meaningful variance between the two of us playing with it. Then factor in all the environmental variables like water temperature, clarity, depth and bottom composition. And of course there is an enormous range of differences in actual skiing technique.

 

Put simply, sharingng numbers is a low precision game. The best we can do is to develop our own personal measuring skills so they are repeatable, then either set and forget someone else's numbers on our ski or set then personalize these numbers. Axiom is a very cool tool, but it's not going to fix fin measurement variability. If anything, it's adding more variability to number sharing ... and looking fabulous while it's doing it.

 

 

[The_MS]

@Horton I agree but as usual, no one ever states how they are measuring.

I think that with using tips for length, the thumb pressed on the head with the ski upside down for DFT and the standard depth measurement, it should all be good.

All the Nano 1 numbers last fall were being given with Jaws from 2 generations of slot calipers.

[jrs]

Stay tuned, @smilinjim is working on some videos of the Axiom to show it in use. He also has plans to get one to @Horton for an un-boxing.

[OTF]

@ms i will build us a suitable tool, i already ordered everything in to do it. Just not enough time since the job change.

[The_MS]

@OTF We have until June the way the weather has been.

[thager]

We always get a month of cold and wind after ice out so that sounds about right.

[OTF]

@ms maybe we should hook "someones" geo thermal system up to heat our lake? Maybe then we could ski before the ice fishing season begins this fall.

[Adam Caldwell]

I've experienced where the thickness of bottom head of the caliper(part butted up to tail of ski during dft) varies from one brand to another.

 

This will cause the calipers to sit in a different location (higher or lower) on the tail radius, and can give very different DFT readings. Just something to keep an eye on. DFT can be a game changer.

 

The same issue can arise with a depth measurement as well with skis that have a lot of tail concave at the fin slot. The thickness of the top caliper head can vary too, and will read differently from one caliper to another depending on how it lands inside the radius of the concave.

 

But I agree with SkiJay, long as you use your own gear, stay consistent and dial things in as you need your golden.