HO's New VMax Plateless Bindings

[SkiJay]

 

The VMax plateless bindings are interesting, but not without issues. They look fabulous, and they are super comfortable. They don't offer as much lateral support as Radar's Vapors, and though the permanently mounted liners do release your feet, they don't release quite as easily as the Vapors unless laced up a little on the loose side.

 

HO designed heal pockets into the liner, much like you would find in a snow ski boot or a hockey skate, but this is counterproductive if using the rear boot as the rear heal needs to be free to move up and down in the boot or the ski's tip-sensitivity increases too much. The RTP version, called the "chop top," will be better in this regard. Overall, I'd say the VMax compares most closely with a good rubber high-wrap binding—only more comfortable and more current looking.

 

But the big issue they'll have to address is how this mounting system will stand up to heavy use. After my first set in them, I removed my ski by pulling my heals out of the bindings without unlacing them—simulating a forward crushing fall. I do this with my Vapors occasionally to make sure I'm not over-tightening them so they can come off easily if they have to. I had tightened them a bit because they weren't as supportive as my Vapors, but they were still loose enough to come off. To my surprise, I'd bent the rear rails in the boots in the process. In the photos below, the metal rails should be straight and flush with the base of the boot.

 

Apparently, one screw holding down two skinny little rails isn't strong enough to be dummy proof—me being the dummy in this case. But I didn't strain to get them off when I did this damage. To repair them, I hammered them straight again with little effort, so I'm assuming the rails are aluminium. I wouldn't want to do this too many times as the rails will eventually fail. If I were committed to these bindings, I would run the top laces loose enough to make coming out of them easier than I had them. Which means this binding will have to be more about comfort and appearance than hardshell-level support.

 

 

 

[oldjeep]

Is there only supposed to be one screw per mounting point? Seems like a lot of force to put on one tiny screw and one tiny ski insert.

[adamhcaldwell]

Does this system come with recommended operating range? Below 32mph? longer then 28off? Hard to believe HO would be promoting this system to a short-line tournament crowd.

[SkiJay]

@oldjeep Each boot has two screws, one under the ball of the foot, the other under the heel.

 

@adamhcaldwell No recommended range that I know of. But I need to clarify. This is still a high performance boot offering a better connection with the ski than say the cushy Vector. And Jeff Rogers is still a world-beater in his highwraps.

 

Perhaps it would be more fair to say that the VMax is targeted more towards skiers who aren't fully sold on how stiff bindings transmit possibly too much to the ski. I was able to ski well in the VMax right out of the box. I couldn't say the same for my first experience with Reflex bindings.

[SkiJay]

It should also be mentioned that HO will be releasing a plate system that will adapt VMax bindings to normal ski inserts.

[Wish]

I would be scared to use that. I'll take my home built pair any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Wow.

[fox197]

Looks poorly designed to me. Maybe someone from HO on here can give some feedback. I don't know why ho has gone to the single centre screw method. They say that it offers the skier to be able to roll the ski over, not push one side down pulling side up. Being involved in mechanical engineering my view is that the boots are still mounted along the same plane so there would be no advantage. I think it's just a ploy to force you to buy their ski if you want their boots. I know they make adapters but they won't be easy to come by. HO make great skis but there other gear is lacking when compared to radar. Go back to standard mounts and put the time and effort into the boots not the mounting system

[MattP]

Hopefully @savaiusini will chine in with a factory response.

[aupatking]

These guys are looking for and trying to design something better. I loved my Exo's. Not every product is gonna check all the boxes for everyone. Exo's are a perfect example of that. I think the Reflex system is better, and do think there is some truth to company specific gear marketing (It's a captive market).Also, everyone wants to own the next breakthrough.

I applaud progression. Obviously not perfect.

[kc]

@SkiJay They remind me more of the Radar Profiles than the Vapors, at least in appearance and with your description. I've not tried the HOs, but have skied both Vapors and Profiles.

[fox197]

@aupatking i agree with what you say and thats my biggest gripe. HO brought out the exo system which i love also but then abandoned it after 3 years. We are probably a minority who loved the exo system but why change the mounting holes. Will they abandon these new holes after 3 seasons?

[gregy]

@fox197 had the same thoughts from the first time I saw them and a mechanical engineer also. The only advantage I can see is that you foot could be closer to the ski. Otherwise seems weeker than a standard plate setup, more mechanical advantage.

[ForrestGump]

I tried the plateless half boot for a month. It put my foot too far away from the ski, throwing off my weight distribution.

[Wayne]

So with out having an HO engineer comment we are making speculation on their design. For all we know the plates are intentionally weak to act as a fuse allowing the binding to completely separate from the ski if your foot doesn't release from the binding.

[Wish]

With load being anything but identical in both feet not releasing and continued pressure being applied, relying on all 4 screws/little plates to fail at the same exact time is a huge gamble. I'm no engineer but I see one boot staying on the ski and one breaking off if that's the way it is designed. Guessing it's not though.

[ALPJr]

I think that your dealer and HO will make this right for you - under warranty. Perhaps a defective part or assembly issue. Seems very odd that it could happen by pulling the boot off. The screws and the aluminum base in my XMax boots are very beefy.

[lpskier]

@skijay Are you right foot forward or LFF?

[SkiJay]

@ALPJr: I have no doubt that any HO dealer would back this up.

@gregy: Another advantage is how incredibly light the system is.

@kc: Great observation. They would be more like the Profiles than the Vapors.

@lpskier: I'm right foot forward. I assume you gave me a dislike above in defense of Reflex. Forgive my choice of words. When I said my first "experience" with the Reflex, I'd have been more accurate to have said my first "set" with the Reflex. Clearly Reflex is an excellent hard shell, but it me more getting used to than the VMax.

[gregy]

@SkiJay incredibly light, maybe they should of put a little more meat into them. Sacrificed strength and integrity for weight? To me it was also concerning that the inserts for the two screws are in the middle right at the thinnest part of the ski.

[lpskier]

@SkiJay if I gave you a dislike, it was by accident. I don't ski Reflex, but u do ski Fogman/ Connelly. As @theKrista pointed out earlier, Connellt has a similar product to HO's coming out for next season and I'm looking forward to trying them.

[lpskier]

@SkiJay I just tried to cancel out the dislike. Turns out it wasn't me!

[SkiJay]

The whole bending thing is probably not an issue under normal use or they wouldn't have released the product. I just want to forewarn people to not over tighten them so that bending can be avoided. They really are nice bindings to ski in.

 

@gregy I agree with you that the rail system is lighter than necessary. If the rails were stainless steel, they wouldn't weigh much more and would be less likely to bend. Being in the thin center of the ski is probably not an issue though. They are beefy screws (#3 Phillips) into large inserts.

[savaiusini]

@SkiJay Sorry for the delayed response. I was away for the holiday and I'm just now seeing this. Glad to hear you're finding the boots comfortable to ski in, but sorry to hear of the bending issue. Please have your dealer set up a return authorization and we will certainly take care of this for you! You hit the nail on the head regarding over-tightening. If you can’t lift your foot at least an inch off the foot bed, the laces are probably too tight. Out of all the vMax boots we've sold, I think we've seen a total of five bent bars. This is a considerably lower failure rate than we see on say, an Animal Rear Boot plate...

 

I would also like to address some of the comments pointing to the lack of screws in our boots. Back in the days before inserts (pre-1990's), we basically used 6 sheet metal screws to hold a boot on a ski. Over time, after inserts were introduced to skis, we really didn’t need 6 screws anymore. 4 - 8/32 machine screws (in a front boot) are plenty to hold a boot down due to the strength of our skis and inserts.

 

Now let’s take a look at our friends in the wakeboard world: Each wakeboard boot uses 2 M6 screws to provide enough holding power. Our direct connect system uses the same M6 threads Rusty Malinoski trusts when he hits the water from 20 feet in the air. Our direct connect screws even have serrated heads to keep the screws from loosening over time. We felt this was a necessary detail since these screws are hidden under a foot bed and might be checked less frequently than the screws on traditional plates.

 

[Waternut]

Take this with a grain of salt as my opinions are based on pictures and I've never skied or even held one of these boots.

 

Plateless or not, looks a lot thicker than my even Reflex boot with a plate and a thin liner. 6mm screws or roughly 1/4" is a big screw so in a perfect world, it will be plenty in pure tension when the load is shared. As an engineer who recognizes we don't live in a perfect world, the boot will never be in pure tension and the bending or rocking will ultimately be the death of it in my mind. This is where wakeboard binding have a HUGE advantage over ski boots. Wakeboard boots have a very wide footprint to resist rocking. Waterski boots do not.

 

Just for the record, landings on wakeboards do not really stress the mounting screws that much as they're only in shear from the stopping/sliding forces. Now catching the front or back edge on a wakeboard is very close to pure tension and at 30mph crossing the wake, it can be pretty harsh and I've seen a few wakeboard bindings tear out this way but not many. However, the really bad falls where the wakeboarder catches their front edge at speed (more like a waterski OTF) are the really violent crashes that usually tear out one insert and snap the binding on the other side.

 

Best of luck to HO and thanks for continuing to progress the sport and try new ideas but I feel like this one needs some more work.

[eleeski]

I'm not understanding the negative comments here.

 

First, my RS1s have inserts in the boot. That should lift a boot as much or more than a plate built into the boot. And as much or more than my Reflex with its heel plate. I've skied quite well on bindings with lifts added. The EXOs I've seen look like a much higher lift. The height of the binding is a small part of the feel. If @ShaneH and others who tried the boot didn't like it, that's OK. I haven't liked every boot I've tried and it's not tied to boot lift (or not). Disliking a boot is not a condemnation of the basic idea.

 

Second, with any boot, you will need to attach to the ski. That can be a weak link - both for support and structural retention. I've tried all sorts of attachments for my hardshells - all have had problems. Never in normal use, always in a severe crash. Whether attaching via a plate or directly, the load on the boot will be internal at some point. (Rubber boots are the exception - but I ski better on hardshells or soft shells.)

 

We always talk about stacked position. That can't happen if you are loading the boot anyway but straight down. Rocking or rolling loads are not large loads under normal conditions. Explosive falls end your buoy count. Hopefully you will escape from one without injury. Nice if your equipment is OK but you can replace the broken parts pretty easily.

 

@savaiusini and the HO people should be commended for innovating. Plateless boots can be lighter and have more mounting options. Imagine the possibilities of a radical rear boot cant - or a front boot cant!

 

FWIW, I have been mounting boots without plates on internal inserts for years. Conceptually straightforward. The details make it clean, safe and optimally performing. Of course, I'm not sure I ever got to the optimal performing part.

 

Eric

[Web]

I would like to see the HO Apex return. The base-less design puts your foot on the ski except for the 3/16" foam footbed. The plate goes out to the edges for strength, and if your draw a FBD, you will see the lateral control is much better by pushing and pulling the edges rather than trying to pivot on center screws. They are light and have very good lateral support (not as much as a hardshell, but more that the Vapor). I replaced the front shoe lace with a bungie on mine. I can cinch the front bungie and ankle bungie separately to give me the confidence in release. If you size them right, your toes and ball of foot go absolutely nowhere and still allow your heel to breathe a little.

 

I've tried to buy the 2014 Apex (last model built) and they are completely wiped out, all gone. Bring them back!!!!

[Brodie_James]

I bent my front boot plate as per the photo above on its first outing (on a CX, upgraded from a Triumph). Sure, the local reseller will provide support until the warranty expires after that the boot will be a sunk investment. I have no problem with the two mounting points, however based on my experience the plate is insufficient. I am really enjoying the ski, however with the boot being a $349 investment (Aussie dollars) I will be considering another brand next time I upgrade.

[ForrestGump]

Let me explain what I meant. I tried the plateless half boot with my reflex front. Had I a plateless on both front and back, it's likely I would have not felt what I did regarding my weight distribution as both feet would anchor to the same plane.

[savaiusini]

Hi @scotchipman, they look very similar, but for 2016, we upgraded the aluminum to 7075 from 6061. This gives the bar quite a bit more tensile and shear strength.

[savaiusini]

@scotchipman yes, everything shipping currently is the new aluminum.

[Brodie_James]

@savaiusini I am nearing the end of the warmer weather here in Australia and have wrapped up my skiing. I have recently bent the 2nd boot which I believe is the later 2016 model with gold stripes. After bending the first boot (2015 model) I took the advise offered on this forum to ensure that I can lift my heal after lacing up. This boot is relatively comfortable and very light, however can not stand the force imposed when coming off the ski.

 

Are HO looking to further improve the boot design, as the buyer I am looking to get more than one season?

[savaiusini]

@"Brodie James" I'm very sorry to hear you bent a 2nd boot. It's possible you received an earlier production batch before we upgraded the aluminum bar to 7075. We are always making improvements and developing new products. Your dealer will gladly take care of you on this.