Installing permanent course

[Justin_C]

Does anyone have any experience installing a permanent course from in the water (as opposed to surveying on the ice and dropping anchors). I'm not looking at a portable course with permanent anchors, I mean individual anchors with sub-buoys on each buoy.

[Andre]

''Ed Brazil line 4. Ed line 4! ''

[mmosley899]

@Justin_C most tech controllers can answer your questions. A big question to you would be how deep is the water? Lakes don't freeze that hard in the south...

[Chef23]

@Edbrazil is the guy you want he has done it countless times.

[Edbrazil]

 

Gee, thanks for the endorsements. Yes, I am still active in the area. I'm currently based

in Florida, so if the site is far from FL, you may be better off contacting a more local Tech.

Controller. Go to the USA Water Ski site, and search for TC's in your area:

http://www.usawaterski.org/pages/offdirectory.asp

 

Not all of them have the survey gear and experience; contact them individually. The size

of the task varies greatly, from private sites that aren't very deep to deep-deep public

lakes. Yes, thru-ice is a great way, but depending on location, it's getting very late in

the Winter season to do that, if the site freezes at all.

 

Anyway, send me some details. My contact Email is on the back inside page of the

Water Skier, in a small ad.

[Justin_C]

Well, I'm from Canada and we had an abnormally warm winter and the ice never got thick enough to go out on safely. As for depth, it would be about 8 feet in the early summer and by fall probably down to 5-6 feet.

[Edbrazil]

Yes, you CAN. For starters, try contacting Vern Oberg. Also, Brent McNicoll, who is a

Canadian, and does a lot of postings, particularly videos. Brent should have some info.

and contacts.

 

Depth sounds like it's favorable, unless the bottom is very uneven, with stumps, rocks,

thick mud, etc. I expect that in Canada, the water should be relatively clear. ?Got GPS

coordinates for the location, or least an address and name of the body of water?

[Justin_C]

Sorry for the delay in response. It is a very silty bottom. I don't have gps coordinates on me but it's on a body of water called Kingston creek in New Brunswick. Not a whole lot of skiing in the area so I doubt anyone local would have a clue what I'm talking about. Probably just best to wait for next winter maybe when we can be sure that we're accurate.

[ToddF]

1. Install a portable course get it straight and perfect

2. then drop your anchors and buoy's at every point where the portable course is,

3. then pull the portable course

 

That way you can ski the course a couple times to determine if you have it in the best location before you make it permanent, unless you already know.

[Justin_C]

That would be nice, but expensive. Especially with a poor Canadian dollar and shipping rates into Canada. Even just a poly mainline could run over $800 for me. Anyone got a extra they aren't using? Ha!

[Edbrazil]

The method above is a good one, that Lucky Lowe has used a few times. An alternative is

to establish a centerline of 10 'marker' buoys, such as concrete half-blocks. Then, the

20 gate buoy anchors can be dropped with relative accuracy, as within a couple of feet.

Think I last used that method for LaPoint Ski Park in Orlando. Once the 20 gate buoys

are adjusted, then drop the 6 skier buoy anchors, maybe starting again with 'marker'

buoys.

Been a while since I had a job au Canada, which was in Nova Scotia for the Perfect Pass

Guys from Dartmouth, NS. Back in 2009. Waterski Canada probably could help you vs.

contacting the right person up there. Given that I'm now based in Florida, I'm probably

out of the picture.

Maybe next Winter will be a real Winter with really thick ice. I have a .pdf file that I could

send from an article in WaterSki Mag back around 1992, that covers thru-ice. Great

technique that minimizes in-water work.

There are some people who have floater courses that they would like to sell or loan,

although could be more difficult finding one near you. Vs. buying a new one.

[andjules]

@Justin_C looks like a nice stretch of narrow water on Google maps: https://goo.gl/maps/iQWYMXS2umB2

My mom grew up on the St John River (in Fredricton); every few years I'm out there for a wedding or a funeral. Maybe one year I'll bring my ski!

 

[Justin_C]

@Edbrazil thanks for the info. I've been in to see the guys there at perfect pass too. Great staff! Most people up here either use portables or put it in with the ice. I'm just very impatient haha! I would be interested in the pdf though!

 

@andjules Absolutely, that water is basically in my backyard. Up until now I've skied at the family cottage which is on a lake right around Fredericton!

[Bdecker]

I did a warm water install last year with a local surveyor. It wasn't easy or cheap, but it can be done. Plan on a full day for sure.

[east tx skier]

Are you planning on hosting tournaments or just skiing with your buddies? You can spend as little or as much on this as you like. You also can get one very straight with some low stretch ropes, zip ties, duck tape, and all the measurements. Middle of the road is a portable, then drop anchor to match. Expensive is the surveyor.

 

Here's an example of the cheap method. We used measured sections of rope, set the anchors, then adjusted the anchors with line of sight, and remeasured. Got it done in one weekend, and it turned out well, but we weren't hosting tournaments. :) Still, old school perfect pass ran good times on it.

 

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1gl9obJSimU/S47e5tL4agI/AAAAAAAACuA/qsGff12LPHk/Course%20at%20Buzzard%20Buoy.JPG

 

[wilyle]

Rent a robotic total station with a data collector. Figure out where exactly you want the coarse, set up 2 known points in relation to the coarse on land. This could be done with the total station and a couple of buoys. The best thing I have seen was a buoy with a threaded male insert glued to the top, all prisms I have used have 5/8" 11 thread couplings. You will need a 360 degree prism. If you have this setup, you could have a guy in the boat holding the data collector, advising swimmers/ divers how far to move each buoy and in what direction. After you get it set, it should be record tolerance. The total stations are extremely accurate. One bit of advise is to let the total station see, clear line of site, the prism all the time but if it looses it, it's no big deal but costs time. Best if you have someone familiar with these systems. GPS system is another, maybe faster way to do it. Most sophisticated contractors have these systems and surveyors. It really should not be that expensive to do.

[jackski]

Is this the Justin that came to Hampton (NB) for a couple of tournaments ?

 

If so PM me

[gsm_peter]

Fwiw.

 

We have steel pipes standing in the mud (from the ice).

Then 2-3 feet of plastic chain with a small fender to keep it straight.

Then we have 2 feet of bungy cord up to the boie. Also easy to adjust.

The boies goes up during winter.

 

The pipes has not moved out of specifications yet (plus 30 years).

 

[Justin_C]

Thanks for all the info! I'm sure it's not just me benefitting from all of this. I'll keep you posted as to what we decide to do. Certainly lots to think about!

[Edbrazil]

As mentioned, some people could be interested in the WaterSki Magazine article vs. doing

course-through-ice. Here it is. The winter part is on the last page. Some of the earlier pages

have parts that may be a bit obsolete. Written circa 1992.

 

[mwetskier]

@Edbrazil -looking real close but i can't see the article from here. can you hold it up a little higher? :smile:

[Edbrazil]

May be too large a file. About 5Mb. I've put in a note to Horton, for advice. If it is too

large, I can leave my contact Email, and I can send it to someone that is interested in it.

I can also see if I can compress it. Or, maybe just post Page 4, which is the through-ice

page. Stand by for a solution.

[Edbrazil]

If you want a copy of my article, Email me: edwardbrazil[at]cs[dot]com. About 5.6Mb.

As before, thru-ice is on Page 4. With some good diagrams. Some of the article is a bit

outdated. Written about 24 years ago.

[Edbrazil]

Here is the old article

 

On another note @Horton is a wonderful human being

[Bdecker]

For a warm water install in deeper water, don't underestimate the challenge of reliably raising and lowering your anchors. I was fortunate enough to have an experienced veteran and heck of a great guy to help. Without the winch float he built with a prism mount there is no chance we would get it right. If you can stand it will be much easier to get the location right.

[mwetskier]

@Edbrazil - i'm guessing you created your fingertrap tensioning method *after* this article was published? that might be a good thing to reproduce here as well . . .

[Justin_C]

Thanks again for all of the input. Certainly a lot to consider. Looks like we're going to try putting a portable in first, ski it for a week or so to make sure the placement is perfect and then use that as a template to sink our anchors. It's about 6-8 feet deep and a very muddy bottom so hopefully both of those things will work in our favour when we go to drop the anchors. Has anyone used a portable course where water depth changes are frequent? We have a bit of a tide to consider. I came across a post somewhere about putting a 20 lb anchor halfway between the anchor and gate arms so that as the water drops that should keep tension on the line. Any experience with this or any other methods?

[The_MS]

If you use PVC you will get sag with the tide changes.

[gsm_peter]

@Justin_C

Since you have mud I would recommend to consider the stellar pipe method.

 

We used Burton skeffling (?) pipes.

If the mud is deep you can put them down easily by hand.

We adjust the boie depth using bungy cord with stainless steel carbines.

Just dive 2-3 feet down and move carbine to suitable plastic chain link.