You be the (chief) judge

[lpskier]

L tournament. Called in the middle of a skier's set due to darkness. Skier's set resumes the following morning. What are the skier's options for resuming the set?

[MISkier]

Protected score up to the point of suspended competition. Unscored warmup pass in the direction of the last completed pass. Resume at the line length and speed following the last completed pass, applying any optional increase by the skier.

 

Alternatively, I believe the skier could elect to start over with an unprotected score.

[Drago]

Yup

[MrJones]

Sounds logical and fair. Not sure that means it follows the IWSF rule book for a standings list score though...

[eleeski]

10.10 E 4 When weather, tournament-supplied equipment, or some other reason

not the fault of the skier causes a delay of more than ten minutes

between slalom passes, the skier shall be allowed an unscored warm up

pass, in the opposite direction of the reride, with a protected score on

passes already completed, or the skier may start over without a protected

score.

 

7.01 When unfair conditions or a malfunction of tournament committee-supplied

equipment occurs, which, in the opinion of a majority of the event judges adversely

affects a contestant, he shall be granted the option of a reride only on the passes

affected.

 

It's likely that the entire run would have been too dark so I'd probably offer a protected complete reride. Or OK a positioning warmup pass if the skier wanted that option.

 

Note, darkness does not just "happen". It is the chief judge's job to see and avoid situations that could cause such an issue.

 

Things do happen, especially at oversold L tournaments. And real unexpected delays can crop up.

 

I'm chief judge at an L this weekend, I appreciate the warning here and will do my best to avoid this scenario.

 

Eric

[eleeski]

8.02: Reride Criteria

When unfair conditions or a malfunction of the tournament committee-supplied equipment occurs,

which, in the opinion of a majority of the Event Judges, adversely affects a contestant, he shall be

granted the option of a reride only on the passes affected. In the case of optional re-rides the score

may only be protected for failure of tournament supplied equipment or under those circumstances

explicitly defined in these rules.

When a skier receives an unfair advantage, the reride is mandatory. When taken, the reride is

scored.

Failure to establish a time through the course in slalom or jump is considered a malfunction of

equipment and a reride will be given. The score is not protected.

If a skier's turn in jump or slalom or tricks is interrupted between passes due to the above listed

circumstances, and the interruption causes a delay exceeding ten (10) minutes, then the skier shall

be allowed a free warm up pass/ jump with a protected score on passes already completed. The

warm-up pass is not scored although the skier will be given the distance in the case of jump. The

timing for the 10 minutes shall be from the moment the problem occurs or the boat is stopped

(whichever comes first).

 

IWWF rules. The same basically. Maybe a little more emphasis on the unfair passes only. But if it's too dark for the last pass it was probably too dark for the first pass (unless something weird went on in the run).

 

Eric

[eleeski]

I didn't know of any tournaments happening during the eclipse!

 

Eric

[klindy]

@eleeski Those are AWSA rules. The IWWF rule book is slightly different (below). The option to "start over" isn't explicitly spelled out (although your comment about the entire run having been too dark is probably sensible). Likewise, one can argue that the score isn't protected.

 

8.02: Reride Criteria

When unfair conditions or a malfunction of the tournament committee-supplied equipment occurs, which, in the opinion of a majority of the Event Judges, adversely affects a contestant, he shall be granted the option of a reride only on the passes affected. In the case of optional re-rides the score may only be protected for failure of tournament supplied equipment or under those circumstances explicitly defined in these rules.

When a skier receives an unfair advantage, the reride is mandatory. When taken, the reride is scored.

Failure to establish a time through the course in slalom or jump is considered a malfunction of equipment and a reride will be given. The score is not protected.

If a skier's turn in jump or slalom or tricks is interrupted between passes due to the above listed circumstances, and the interruption causes a delay exceeding ten (10) minutes, then the skier shall be allowed a free warm up pass/ jump with a protected score on passes already completed. The warm-up pass is not scored although the skier will be given the distance in the case of jump. The timing for the 10 minutes shall be from the moment the problem occurs or the boat is stopped (whichever comes first).

 

 

[MISkier]

What transpired before and during the set between the Chief Judge, boat crew and skier?

 

Was the boat crew consulted to confirm they could properly proceed (driving and judging) with the available visibility?

 

Was the skier consulted on their acceptance of the conditions?

 

What about the tower judges?

 

Who made the call that the competition should be stopped?

 

In the scenario where nobody was consulted before the skier's round commenced, but the round was later determined to be halted, the unfair conditions rule applied. This is because the skier was allowed to proceed believing they would be allowed to finish.

[eleeski]

@klindy Keeping track of the differences between IWWF and AWSA is a challenge at L tournaments. The IWWF rulebook is a bit hard to find (it's in the IWWF site under archived tournament rules not the current which just shows the changes). It took me a couple minutes to find and quote the IWWF version. The AWSA version is relevant for many tournaments here.

 

Good reminder for me.

 

Hopefully we've done everything right and don't have any weird things thrown at us (like an eclipse).

 

Eric

[Horton]

I don't understand how there was enough light for the first pass and not enough of light for the last pass. It seems like pretty bad judgment to let the ski get started and then suddenly realize it's too dark.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton As someone who very often skis until daylight forces us to stop, I don't agree.

 

Sometimes, the visibility looks pretty good from the boat, but once you get in there you realize it's really hard to pick up the buoys when you need to. Sometimes, you can barely see the course at all until you get close, and yet the buoys have good enough contrast up close to run some passes. And sometimes, you cross a threshold pretty suddenly from "good enough" to "can't see."

[eleeski]

The FAA defines night as 26 - 30 minutes after sunset (civil twilight depends on time of year and latitude by a couple minutes). You're only going to get a couple skiers after sunset no matter how much pressure is on you. In a tournament, you must call it to avoid this problem - or worse.

 

Despite my powerful glasses, I have OK night vision. I can usually see (and ski) later than most. So practice might get pushed a bit. @Than_Bogan has a point. But things shouldn't get pushed that close at a tournament - it's not fair.

 

Eric

[lpskier]

Additional facts for the discussion:

1. The tournament was not oversubscribed. There was a 1.25 hour rain delay before the tournament could start in the morning and another .75 hour delay near the end of the event. When the rain stopped there were only about three skiers left to complete the day (Saturday). The second two rounds were scheduled for Sunday.

2. The skier raised the visibility issue after completing two passes. The boat crew agreed it was hard to see, particularly in one direction, back toward the dock. From the dock, visibility seemed better.

3. The last completed pass was 12 meters/ 55k in MM division. The skier regularly runs 10.75, so he expected he would run 11 and probably be able to see, but not be able to see at 10.75.

4. While the applicable rule(s?) have been quoted, no one yet has articulated a completely correct answer, at least according to the CJ that made the call.

5. Anticipating the issue, the CJ, who was also the Pan Am judge, contacted another Pan Am judge Saturday night to discuss the issue and to be sure of the correct answer. He did his homework first, and was prepared when the issue was raised. That, to me, is excellent officiating.

6. While I have now reviewed the applicable rule(s?) and fully agree with the CJ's call, I thought he was wrong when he first made it. I pose the question here for discussion and education.

[LeonL]

What was the CJ's call? Or did I miss that previously?

[Splasheye]

@eleeski IWWF rules are where I would expect them and not what I would consider hard to find.........

 

Under resources on the iwwfed.com site (full rulebook)

 

and on the iwsf.com site first entry under Rulebooks

 

(full rulebook)

 

[klindy]

@Splasheye those are the right places to find the rule book. However the IWWF rule book is largely a bunch administrative rules which describe how to select and run a "world championship". And it's pretty much a giant run-on sentence which makes it hard to find what you're looking for sometimes.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@lpskier there is more than 1 "correct" answer in this situation:

 

1. Before the skier starts, a majority of the event judges could have stopped the event if a) they could not see the buoys to fairly judge the score, b) if they believed there was a safety concern due to darkness, c) the event driver recommended stopping if he couldn't safely or fairly keep the boat centered.

 

2. If the event judges and driver thought they could safely and fairly complete that skier's turn before it got "too dark", they should pull the skier. If conditions hold and the skier achieves his "normal" score, i.e. no unfair disadvantage, life is good and its beer time. If the skier falls early or the event judges / driver decide to stop, the skier, his representative, or one of the judges can request a reride under the rule stated above and the reride would take place the next day, or when he could complete without the unfair disadvantage.

 

Note that the driver does not get an official vote, but his input should be considered by the event judges.

 

Also note that it is the event judges, NOT the chief judge, who determine when/if to stop and if a reride is to be granted. The reality is that sometimes the CJ can make his opinion known and have influence over the event judges.

 

If I had been the skier or event judge in that situation, I would have likely taken the chance and pulled the skier knowing that a reride request would be likely.

[klindy]

@Bruce_Butterfield I would say that the Chief Safety can stop the tournament anytime they feel it's unsafe.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@klindy agree. Chief safety is about the only official with override / veto authority.

[eleeski]

@Splasheye My first try there just gave me the updates to the rules. I had to go to archives to get the full rule book. Not too difficult to find but I did have to persevere.

 

As chief judge, I'll listen to any safety concern. I'd even break the rules to prevent an injury. (But never to enhance a score.) The driver and safety do have discretion to deal with a safety issue. Stop for that kid that swam into the course - without asking anyone's permission! And don't drive if it's too dark for YOU to see safely even if the chief judge says it's OK.

 

Eric

[lpskier]

You guys are missing a fact noted above. The "Its too dark to see" issue arose after the skier skied and completed two passes. He didn't want to continue skiing because, due to the angle and position of whatever was left of the sun, he was able to see enough on what would be his next pass at 11.25 but was afraid he would not be able to see at all at 10.75 coming back toward the dock. It looked "OK" from the dock where the safety and chief judge were located. Driver agreed that it was hard to see coming back towards the dock during the skier's last completed pass. Tower judges weren't polled prior to the skier completing his two passes. They agreed it was time to stop.

 

So what happens to our skier in the morning?

[klindy]

Well let's review relative to the rules -

 

1. Skier left the dock under what was believed to be "normal" or typical conditions.

2. Skier ski'd two passes therefore he "entered the course" the first time (officially 'starting' his ride).

3. Part way thru there were darkness concerns ("unfair conditions" which potentially sets up an optional reride and/or protected score - potentially).

4. Apparently a discussion occurred after pass two (successful pass) where it was decided it was too dark to continue. I'll assume the event judges were polled and it was determined it was too dark to continue.

5. So, since the skier entered the course and never really had any "effected passes" (it apparently was bright enough for the first two passes), and IWWF rules do not allow for a skier to start over after a lengthy delay, the skier should not be entitled to a reride on either of the first two passes. However, both passes are in the scorebook.

6. The skier should be granted a warmup pass (since more than 10 minutes has elapsed) and start with pass 3 from the direction the skier would have been going the night before.

7. Wherever he falls or misses is his final score.

8. After the fall/miss, go get the next skier.....

[Horton]

This whole thread reminds me of .... the gas gauge is on "E" but we think we can make it and than we are checking the manual when we do run out of gas.

 

A freaking L event In the dark?

[lpskier]

@klindy You are correct, sir! Give the man a donut.

 

@Horton You are about as much fun as yesterday's tuna sandwich. Give yourself a panda!

[MISkier]

So, in this instance, the option to start over with an unprotected score doesn't apply?

[klindy]

It’s a class L tournament @MISkier. That option doesn’t exist.

 

No more donuts please @lpskier. @John Brooks would not approve.

[eleeski]

15 second start and run in, 17 seconds in course, 15 second run out, 45 second long set down, two passes and about 3 minutes elapse. Two more passes and another 3 minutes to finish the skier. Too dark to see doesn't happen with only a couple minutes warning. I don't get it.

 

Eric

[lpskier]

@eleeski The skier's point was that you could see in one direction but not the other. From the dock, you could still see, but not returning to the dock. Until the issue was raised by the skier after two passes were complete, the judges were unaware of an issue.

 

@Bruce_Butterfield The chief judge can always overrule the safety director. AWSA Rule 12.02. The CJ is the guy in charge of the tournament, period. A smart CJ might not make a practice of overruling the SD.