Is it time to change the ¼ buoy rule?

[Horton]

Looking at the below image of JMac I am reminded of just how incredibly unlikely it is for a skier to actually score ¼ and even less likely it is for the judges to get it right.

 

At deep shortline skiers are traveling somewhere around 40 or 50 feet per second at the ball. To score ¼ ball the skier must lose the handle or fall in a space of LESS THAN 3 feet.

 

My proposal is that ¼ balls should only be awarded after video review and only when it effects a placement at a major event or a record.

 

[jedgell]

Mostly agree. I'd get rid of it completely, no sense in bringing the video review into it, have a run-off if necessary. Keep it simple, you either get a full buoy, or half. I'm just a hack trying to get through 35 off, but don't see any need for the 1/4 score.

[Horton]

@jedgell when you talk about world records at 41 and 43 off quarter buoys are legitimate increments of achievement. At Pro tournaments where there's money and prestige it is again a legitimate differentiator between performances. At your local Class C it's too complicated to get it right.

[JackQ]

I may be in the minority but I disagree, I find 1/4 buoy called correctly in C tournaments more frequently than the larger tournaments. Some of the calls in last Masters were more than surprising. The difference even at my level between let's say 3 and 3 1/4 is huge.

 

Watching live the buoy/pass is question at Swiss I questioned myself if it was a 1/4 or nothing, 1/2 buoy was not even in my thought process. As I could not know with any certainty, I would have given 1/4 buoy as the benefit goes to the skier. The critical question: was his front foot past the line (buoy/gate line) before the handle left his hand, clearly his ski never broke the 2,4,6 plane so 1/2 buoy it is not.

[Horton]

@JackQ You are a pretty high level skier. As a skier who runs constantly into 39, I would assume you are more likely to actually score a 1/4 than most tournament skiers.

 

I am sure I have scored a 1/4 in practice but I can not remember the last time and do not have think I have ever gotten a tournament score of a 1/4.

 

Part of my thinking is that level 8 skiers and below skiers almost never actually score 1/4s.

 

The other part of my thinking is that I just do not know how judges can be expected to consistently get the call right because

1. a ligit 1/4 is so rare

2. it happens in a tiny fraction of a second

 

[Kelvin]

Wasn't there a WR set at something like 1.25 at 43off where the skier actually stood up and rode away? I never understood how that is even possible because there is no way for the skier to stay outside the 2-4-6 buoy line for that length of time.

[Horton]

@Kelvin under the current rules that is 100,000,000% impossible. Even at 28 off I do not think it is possible to ski away not not get the 1/2

[JackQ]

Agree, hard to ski away and get 1/4. Years ago when I skied in West region, Brian Hockenberry rounded 4@38 and broke forward but skied away with both hands on handle and was scored 2 1/4. I had to draw a diagram to explain to the judges that as the rope did not reach the buoy at 38, and as he had both hands on the handle, it was impossible to not earn 1/2 buoy.

 

At 15 or 22 if you tried real hard you could stay outside buoy line and get a 1/4. Maybe an new challenge, what is the shortest line you can ski away and stay ouside buoy line until past next set of boat guides.

[lpskier]

I don’t agree that the 1/4 buoy Rule is hard to judge. I think that the hard part is knowing how to see a 1/4 buoy, paying attention and having the confidence to call what you saw.

 

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[Than_Bogan]

Dump it!

The confusion and errors it brings FAR outweigh the benefit of having that extra notch in incredibly rare situations.

 

However, getting rid of the 1/4 doesn't really fix the judging problem because you still have to decide between 0 and 1/2 which is still an invisible line.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I think the score needs to stay, but with better education on the judges. At a placement tournament or even for standings lists, 1/4 buoy can make a difference.

 

I do have major issues with the inconsistency and misunderstandings of how its judged. As a skier, I know if I can get around the buoy to the 1/4 score area with the handle in my hand, I can turn the buoy and get at least another 1/2. The only time I would let go of the handle is if I know I can't get around the buoy still holding on.

 

With the skier's perspective in mind, as a judge, I will almost never score 1/4 if the skier lets go of the handle. It would have to be very clear that he was in the 1/4 score area and for some strange reason lets go. IMO, the only legitimate way a skier can get 1/4 is to be holding on to the handle, hit the buoy, and yard sale away.

 

Yes, its still a judgement call, but if the judges kept the skier's perspective in mind - that if you get to the 1/4 region with the handle in hand, there is no reason t let go - the calls would be much more consistent.

 

Video review is going the wrong direction and adding complication.

[liquid d]

I disagree with John. If i see it live, I never miss the call. I've had many yard sales for that 1/4 bouy...you gotta be willing to pay the price.

[LeonL]

I think it should be done away with, at least at class c. I believe I disagree with @Bruce_Butterfield. My interpretation of the rule is if you hit the buoy, "significantly displace" the buoy you get nothing. Just my interpretation. I've seen 1/4 buoys given when the skier skis away and I believe that is patently impossible.

[RazorRoss3]

I'd have to agree, if hitting the buoy causes the yard sale then there was either major displacement of the buoy by smacking the snot out of it or your buoys are hard as a rock if they didn't displace from 150-200lbs hitting them at 40mph. It is certainly possible to yard sale at the ball without hitting the buoy though if you just came off the wake like a pile of flaming garbage but managed to get out side the ball before the tip of your ski pulled a submarine on you although that might break some "skiing position" rule

[elr]

As I said in the Swiss thread, I think we need something like the "Lexi Rule" that Golf adopted . . .

 

"Also, just three weeks after Thompson was hit with the four-shot penalty, the USGA and R&A released a new Rules of Golf decision decision (34-3/10) limiting video evidence in two ways:

 

1. If an infraction can’t be seen with the naked eye, there’s no penalty, even if video shows otherwise. "

 

The event judges should make the call with only FULL SPEED video if available.

[jcamp]

This is the debate I think of every time someone says "how hard is it to count to 6?" while complaining about the slalom judge application/approval process.

[Than_Bogan]

@jcamp Another reason simplification would be good!

[The_MS]

You should only get a 1/4 ball if you tear your achlllies.

[disland]

I agree with @Bruce_Butterfield at 41 off it is almost a physical impossibility to score 1/4 buoy. Even using video unless the rule refines how many actual frames are required is it one frame 2 frames at what frame rate?

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@disland actually as the rope gets shorter, the 1/4 buoy score gets more likely. 39 and 41 is where I would expect to see most of them. But again, letting go of the handle is rarely a legit score - you have to pay for that extra 1/4!

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield you're an engineer. Tell me what fraction of a second elapses if the skier is going 32 miles an hour and travels 3 ft. That is a rough approximation of the time a skier has to lose the handle or fall to earn the quarter ball.

[klindy]

I have a great 1/4 buoy video but I can't seem to post it. What format is acceptable?

[LeonL]

@jcamp your comment concerning other people saying "how hard is it to count to 6"? We've all heard it said. Calling a proper 0, 1/4 or 1/2 isn't the half of it. If you're in the boat and an unusual situation arises do you know what to do? Kinda hijacking the thread but counting buoys isn't nearly all of it, especially if you're in the boat.

[disland]

@Bruce_Butterfield My hypothisis is based on the fact at shorter line the radius of the curve is shorter and the skier is going faster. Thus the time that the ski is exactly at buoy width is shorter meaning its either not yet at 1/4 or already 1/2 therefore almost impossible

[Horton]

I don't think there's any question as the rope get shorter skiers fall in the quarter buoy zone more often. I will also concede that as the Rope gets super short granting skiers the difference between quarter-and-a-half ball becomes more and more valid.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton, you tell me what fraction of a second elapses when a major league pitcher throws a 90mph fast ball and the ball is in contact with the bat for a home run? Is there ever any doubt when the bat has made contact with the ball? My point is that in both cases, the amount of time is not relevant to a "good" or "bad" event.

 

My opinion is that the only reason for a skier to "let go" of the handle is if he isn't going to get outside the buoy line - and no 1/4 score. If he is able to hold on to the handle and get around the buoy and keep going, it should be a minimum of 1/2. There is a very small window for a "real" 1/4 and in virtually all cases, that results in a yard sale. The judgement for that call is just as easy as knowing if the bat made contact with the fastball.

 

@disland, the reasons (IMO) that 1/4 scores are more common with shorter ropes has to do with several factors:

- faster speed at which the skiers are going

- the margin of error to get around the buoy or not

- knowing that the extra 1/4 will make a difference in placement, standings list or prize money causes the skier to go for it and sacrifice the body. If there is nothing important on the line, there is no reason to take the crash.

 

WRT significantly displacing vs grazing, yes that's absolutely part of the judgement, but at most short lines when the 1/4 is in question, grazing the buoy is enough throw the skier off and cause the fall - that's what happens in most yard sales. If the skier runs straight over the buoy, "...move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it", it would not be unusual for the skier to keep going. Again, all part of the judgement call, but thinking about it from the skier's perspective makes a better judge.

 

I agree its not a perfect rule and is frequently judged incorrectly, but I have yet to hear a better suggestion.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield when the ball hits the bat there's no question what happenef. Nobody wonders if there was contact or not.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@horton, that's exactly my point. No yard sale, no 1/4. Pretty easy to judge.

[Horton]

Hmmm

[liquid d]

Many attempts for the 1/4 are super late edge changes where there is a very slim probability of getting even 1/2. Most of mine were knowing that I no chance to get the ski back in front of me, but I could get it outside that bouy. As Bruce said... I can't remember one where the ski stayed attached to me. Probably why I'm getting body parts replaced regularly now!

[usaski1]

Dump it! no one can call it right, and in the end, it doesn't make a difference.. How many placements are decided over 1/4 ball? Almost none I suppose.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I got my first nationals medal with a 1/4 buoy score. At big tournaments it can make a big difference.

[JeffSurdej]

If we got rid of it would the “old” 1/4 become 0 or 1/2?

[LeonL]

In my experience almost every 1/4 that I see given is erroneous.

[dchristman]

@JeffSurdej The "old" 1/4 becomes 1/2 and the "old" 1/2 becomes 3/4 :p

[liquid d]

Competition involves judgement calls in all sports. You can't honestly say that a skier who just barely gets around 2 manages and "s turn" to get back to the wakes before 3, would be the same as the guy that gave it his all and got the ski outside of the 3 (whether he massacres 3 ball or not) would not earn the win.

[liquid d]

typed too fast, but you get the point..haha

[A_B]

I like the half and full score. Anything short of the wakes is a half. This old man isn’t throwing the ski out around a buoy anytime soon to garner a quarter more. If I was 30 years younger, probably.

[lpskier]

@JeffSurdej Thats a tough call. I say split the difference. ;-)

[klindy]

I’d disagree that the 1/4 buoy call is “almost always wrong” and “no one can call it”.

 

You’re looking at one still shot of one skier out of how many passes at just this one tournament?? If I read the scores right JMac scores a 1/4 buoy in a previous round too. Did the judges call that wrong too? Should it have been a score of 2 instead of 2-1/4 (in the previous round)??

 

I know it’s a tough call. It’s a judgement call. That’s why there is 3 or 5 judges and, at record tournaments, video review.

 

Every event - slalom, trick or jump - have judgement calls. Whether it’s the gates, or 1/4 buoys or full buoy with slack (far more wrong calls with this rule), or clicking on the wrong pixel in jump or credit/no credit tricks or trick timing or boat path issues or rerides for virtually any reason (now that a slow time in slalom is impossible) — they ALL involve judgement calls. If you want to eliminate all the judgement calls and ambiguity we can. But it’s likeky no longer a sport. Tubing anyone?

[lpskier]

if you take the fun out of judging, you’ll have fewer good judges.

[Horton]

@klindy my original point is that at the average tournament it almost never really happens but in the case of a elite or pro event it may need video to make sure what really happened.

 

 

[eleeski]

At the average tournament, 1/4 happens a lot. Skiers give up with the longer ropes and either don't try or ski off to their friends on shore. Always a few - especially in college or grassroots tournaments.

 

But that isn't really what is being considered here. Quarters are possible but extremely rare. I'm pretty comfortable with never calling a quarter on a deep shortline skier. But there have been a couple obvious crashes for a true quarter. Just a couple and I've been judging a long time.

 

So, no. Don't get rid of it. The 1/4 buoy has it's place. But the real rarity of it should be stressed in clinics and judge development.

 

Eric

[jcamp]

I don't think anyone would argue that a skier who makes it out to the buoy line for a 1/4 buoy advanced farther in the course, and deserves to beat, someone who just rounded the previous buoy, made it back to the wakes.

 

It would not feel right if those two skiers in that scenario tied. Leave the 1/4 buoy.

[RichardDoane]

1/4 buoys are rare, but important. Like @Bruce_Butterfield I have had a 1/4 be a placement position improvement at a big tournament.

 

As a Judge I know how to call a 1/4, you just have to be paying attention to handle control.

 

And as a skier, I know how to get that extra 1/4 when needed.

[RichardDoane]

 

[dvskier]

Looks brutal! Was it worth the pain?

[RichardDoane]

@dvskier - yes, but always hold onto the handle so you don't get wrapped up. If it takes an extra 1/4 ball to beat @horton at the BOS Bell Acqua this September, I'll do it again

[Edbrazil]

If you are going to have 1/4, you should have 3/4. Which could be getting back in

the wake with a pile of slack, and letting go.

 

[Drago]

...gonna save the sport