Greg Sund runs 41 off on the GOODE XTR. Twice.

[ROBOT]

This past Saturday Greg Sund entered a very elite club by doing something that only a handful of skiers has ever done before in a tournament: running 41 off at 34 m.p.h.

 

And remarkably, he did it twice.

 

Riding his GOODE XTR, Greg ran 41 off in both the first and second rounds of the John’s Lake 117 tournament this past weekend in Wantage, NJ. While he ended both rounds with the same score of 1 at 43 off, during his second round he skied just inside two ball.

 

Click on the video above to see his second round 41- and 43-off passes.

 

Greg has been on a tear lately, advancing to the Final Four at both the Okeeheelee and Cedar Ridge Big Dawg stops in 2018.

[The_MS]

I am buying one

[Wish]

Shouldn't that 41 look a LOT harder??

[Chef23]

At what point did he think holy crap I am going to run this again?

[The_MS]

Doesn’t even look like he is up on the boat.

[The_MS]

at the 14 second mark, it looks like he is at 38 off by the angle from the pylon.

[DaveD]

I'm amazed he got around 1 ball @ 43 with that short set-up.

[LeonL]

What @ms said. He just doesn't look like he's up on the boat high enough for 41.

[MattP]

Probably 38 going the same direction. More than likely forgot to record 41 and got the 43.

[Chad_Scott]

I mean come on guys are we really talking about this. Look Greg is a great skier and has come on this year pretty consistent in the big dawg. He’s a hell of a competitor but this Sure does not look like any of the 41 offs I have seen or driven. Something happened somewhere I have driven quite a few of them and I can assure you the skier has to be much further up on the boat. Nate who runs the pass almost daily is turning the buoy perpendicular to the pylon. I can almost see him in my peripheral vision while driving. This reminds me Of the skiing by coordinates frenzy.

 

[Ed_Johnson]

OH NO, not another DR Micheal's signature course design ???

 

 

[jedgell]

And I thought Nate made 41 look easy...

[thager]

Typo. S.B. "41 On."

[MISkier]

I think I figured it out. With the new NCWSA mini-course/novice buoy rules last year, someone must have installed those instead of the regular turn buoys.

[LeonL]

Someone who is a math whiz can do some calculations, but there are a lot of variables as to where the skier is at the buoy in relation to the pylon. What is not a variable (Mr. Obvious here) is the course is 11.5M wide, at -41 the rope is 10.25 long and exactly perpendicular to the pylon you are 1.25M short of the buoy center. Add another 3" to outside the buoy. Bottom line, I don't see how a skier can get around the buoy at -41 from much less than being perpendicular. I know some will say that's the handle, with arm and body length you've got extra. Put a buoy on the ground and hook your rope to something 37' 8 3/4" away and see what you've got. Move your angle back 10' and check again. I don't want to come off as being harsh to Greg, but as @Chad_Scott alluded, it just don't look right. If it were a rope mishandle by the boat judge, how did it happen twice?

[bishop8950]

Greg is a tough skier and nice guy. But that looks way to easy. Either ropes were long, course was narrow, boat was not centered or something. Guessing ropes which you are not required to measure for a C, but you should.

 

I have skied there. Crazy set up and beautiful property in the mountains of northern NJ. You can ski well there, but not that well.

[aupatking]

I’m hoping it was just a mis-captioned video but it, very unfortunately, casts some huge doubts on the claims that he ran it, twice.

[DefectiveDave]

At 41-off, being at 90 degrees up on the boat your handle would be at a width of 34 ft. Looking at the above video, my guesstimate is that he is about 12 ft (straight line distance) from being at 90 degrees assuming we're approximately perpendicular to the boat's position. This translates into being about 70 degrees up on the boat, which would put his handle at a width of about 32 ft at 41-off. So to get to 37 ft 8.75 in, he would need to get the ski out about 6 ft.

 

I don't think it's totally implausible that the above video is 41-off, but I've made some pretty big assumptions and 2 ft is a big difference at those line lengths.

[bwreinke]

Score book posted online. Numerous skiers posted scores that significantly boosted their averages.

 

I may have to go enter this one :D

[scottbell]

Here's what I have to say to the nay-sayers.... and I have no finalized proof but it's my take. John's Lake is very reputable. Ed Brazil maintains record capability here. John Autore himself is a National Champion and Kenny Autore was a slalom protege back in the 90's. He still runs mid-deep 39 regularly. Greg followed Ken w/ the same line and made this score....twice. I also have the video. As I stated, I did not measure the rope but I skied 3 rounds here too on the same rope. PR's go down here all the time. The lake is ridiculously good, albeit short set-ups. Greg ran into 41 at regionals last year and was in it. Hard to believe I know.... but I believe it. Wait till the season goes on and you get a chance to watch....he's a steady skier. If he doesn't at least get a big bite at 41 at Regionals and Nationals, I'll be very surprised.

[jcamp]

The Autores are some of the nicest, classiest people in skiing.

[ALPJr]

Great skiing. Great site. John's was my first tourney, NJ states in '89. They used to run the Iron Man with Twin Lakes. Slalom rd1 at John's - Bike 20 miles to - Slalom rd2 at Twin Lakes. My tourney PB was at at John's in the '96 NJ states.

[Horton]

When this video and text showed up in my inbox I thought..."Sund ran 41 twice. Ok that seems believable." It is no secret that Greg is a legit bad ass. I confess I did not even watch the video- I just posted it.

 

A few hours later my phone almost literally melted. Calls and texts saying that video was clearly not legit. My favorite text of the day read "Sund is really a nice guy. Pretty sure he didn't ask the driver to swerve."

 

To me the second attempt at 43 (at 37 second mark in video) is the most telling. Greg got close enough to move 2 ball but he is WAY behind the swim step.

 

My take is the following

• SOMETHING is wrong and those scores are not correct. It was a Class C event so there is likely no record of the actual rope lengths or any boat path video.

• Sund is a legit dude and I sincerely hope this does not reflect badly on him. Maybe this will push him to run a 41 somewhere with measured ropes and boat path video.

• It sucks when Class C events are not legit. Do we really need to be ELR to follow the rule book?

[Drago]

Ropes should be measured for Cs. Chief Judge signs off on that.

That was my thought ,too @Horton , the almost 2 at 43 he's 15 feet behind perpendicular

 

[adamhcaldwell]

Greg, we have a 4 round record at Trophy this weekend in Charleston. Come on down and back that score up! We have a couple spots left for ya. The 2018 Malibu is dialed in and lake is skiing awesome!

[dchristman]

I would like to know how you all are judging his position on the boat when the camera angle isn't perpendicular to the course at either the 3 ball at 41 or the 2 ball coming back at 43. I believe he's further up on the boat than you think. I saw him run his 4@41 there last fall and thought he was on his way to running it. He does make it look easy.

[LeonL]

@bishop8950 and @Horton about the "not required to measure for a C" and "no record of actual rope length"......to the best of my knowledge the scoring program asks for rope measurements. To me, no less required than ELR. At ELR it is the responsibility of the TC. At class C that responsibility resides with the chief judge. I have been CJ at many class C tournaments and I take that responsibility seriously. I certainly am not casting aspersions on anyone. Nor do I intimate cheating or dereliction of duties. I would hope that an honest mistake was at the root of anything that was off. Again, if it was off. I regret that such doubts arise concerning any skier's performance. It sure would have been better if no video had been posted, I guess.

[bishop8950]

Knowing what little I do about the parties involved, I do not suspect any deliberate manipulation skier or site. Sh*t happens though.

 

For anyone that wants to validate the performances, post any end course video, measure the rope and handle confirm the course survey (which @scottbell says above is good). Short of that speculation is warranted.

 

If legit, Greg will run it somewhere else. No one believed Nates scores till he did it 5 times in a row at different sites/drivers and then the original scores were perceived as retro-validated.

[ROBOT]

[elr]

Why is there such a penchant to "eat our own" . . . Sund has been running 115 for 15 yrs. Camera angle was bad. The shortest line lengths look easy when they are run - otherwise you don't run them.

[pcmcon729]

Back in the mid to late nineties, I was skiing and driving a 3 rd slalom tournament in Natick, Ma. Sund was riding an early model Goode, that I believe he had just starting skiing on. He ran 38 in all 3 rounds. On a bet, the last round, he went out cold at 38 on his opener, and ran it so early and wide it was crazy. This was not one of those candy-ass man made sites, but a public lake with a cove closed off temporarily for the event. Bottom line, is that me and everyone else who was there went out and bought ourselves a Goode!

[Horton]

@elr

In this case it sucks because a lot of us respect Sund but it is like "everyone runs 38 on the internet". Everyone gets mad when I say practice doesn't count but maybe at 41 off Class C does not count.

[LeonL]

@elr you're right, the camera angle is not perpendicular as can be determined by the unaligned Bimini mounts. But.......

And @Horton Class C should count. I just don't see why the integrity of Class C, in general, should be in question. You gotta have at least 3 Regular or above judges to get sanctioned. Adding 2-3 more Seniors and a guy with TC credentials shouldn't guarantee more integrity. Our course has been surveyed, our ropes get measured. Now granted no one has run 41 off here either.

[scottbell]

@elr, thanks for posting that....I was looking at some -41 video from the boat and the rope barely gets perpendicular, and to boot, but the time the skier is turning the ball, is well less that perpendicular. True about Nate running 41 as well. The angle the video was taken is deceiving...It is very similar to that video of Andy. It just has to be run perfectly.

[MISkier]

Were other skiers running passes that they’ve never run? Was anybody beating their PBs or averages by something like 4 buoys? If there’s an issue, i would think others would be affected. If everyone is in line, must be good.

 

Exclude the kids from this question. I’ve seen them do it. It’s not uncommon for them to experience a period where they advance quickly.

[Jody_Seal]

Class C does count as it goes up on US rankings and is considered equal too a class E,L&R as far as AWSA is concerned!

look at it this way though as it may jack the MM minimum mandatory level 10 score up a notch...

Level 10 now that's a joke!!

 

I like the way the doubters are flexing their muscles and was not even there to witness.. At least with the Dr. M fiasco he truly was seen at the scene of the crime!!

[RazorRoss3]

It's a slippery slope to start questioning the validity of a score just because it was in a class C event. That video of Andy is proof enough to the idea that when the viewing angle is off that the geometry looks funny since I don't think any of us could have accurately called what line that was until the 4 ball. In the end the class C score already has a diminished value

It takes more of them to escape penalty in the USA waterski rankings

Can't set state/regional/national records

no IWWF value so you aren't moving up the world rankings either

and at the point where you are getting looks at 41 you were already qualified for nationals with a lot of margin so there is limited value to foul play.

 

For what it's worth I'd say Congratulations Greg and I hope you do it again to help put some of the more skeptical minds at ease.

[nate93]

I was at the tournament and saw the measurements on the ropes. I also was a boat judge for many skiers and I can say that the boat paths were good while I was in the boat. Now granted I was 3 skiers after Greg so I wasn’t in the boat for him but I had the same driver and rope and I ran what I’ve been running in practice. That being said I think the Autore’s deserve much more respect than being given here. They have always gone above and beyond to make sure everything is perfect and within the rules and they have done more for this sport than 90% of the people in the world.

 

So Congrats to Greg Sund for a terrific day, obviously tons of hard work. I hope he runs it at the next Big Dawg....I’m sure the apologies will pour in then.

 

[The_MS]

Dr M had doubters long before he got busted.

Greg is now in an elite class of people that have run 41. My hat is off to him.

[6balls]

Gotta think camera angle. Seriously...swerve driving won't help at that line, and how far off would the rope have to be...this isn't the "one guys handle at the starting dock is a few inches long" kind of thing.

Props to Greg...I say legit with bad camera angle.

[Jody_Seal]

@RazorRoss3

"Can't set state/regional/national records"

That all depends on what state, what region one skis in. not many Class REL events west and north of the southern and so-central regions, so again Class C is not as penalizing as some would think. As far as rankings go the penalty is nearly nil for class C scores..

 

The doubters are going to doubt and the haters are going to hate! The rest of us just want more time on the water to take a shot at that next buoy!!

It is really time to end all this un productive whining and complaining about skiers, boats, drivers and what not. Time to Channel some of these negative vibes and move on and enjoy what the sport has to offer. time to say something righteous and hopeful for a change!

 

 

 

 

[markchilcutt]

@Jody_Seal I like what your saying. Show me the next bouy

[BraceMaker]

My opinion varies by ME HAVING HIM IN MY GOODE BRACKET!!!!

[Lkhopski]

I was there as well and he ran it TWICE!! and yes a lot of people have their PB's at John's. I am one of them!! Great skiing Greg! and I also agree with nate93, the Autore's run a legit tournament and ALWAYS go by the rules!!!

[APB]

Too much speculation. Too much web drama. Good dude,reputable event, great skiing. It’s done. Great job Greg!

[LeonL]

@RazorRoss3 as @Jody_Seal said according to which state you're talking about. Each state federation, or association or whatever makes the rules as to records. In KY you can set a state record at class C. By the way, there is a situation where an "L" score is penalized more than a "C". If you move up to a division where the speed is slower (i.e., M2 to M3) the scores that you carry over are face value (32 off at 36 mph is 96) if they were achieved at a class C. If that same score was at an E or L it would be reduced by 6 to 90. How 'bout them apples!

[skidawg]

This entire thread is one reason skiing is shrinking, skiers eat their own. Running 41 is a crap shoot at best, skier has to be game on, driver has to be money, both have to be in sync with each other, water temp and conditions have to be just right. Sounds like everything lined up for Greg. Big congrats. Boat path perfect, I don’t know and don’t care-running 41 is crazy hard regardless. Just my .02 from a guy who’s come very close but no cigar with 41.

[Milford]

Greg is one of the nicest guys you will meet and has everything dialed in. He eats right, trains hard and is a great talent. He used to ski as a pro, so it doesn’t surprise me that he finally ran it. I was in AZ in May and he was consistently getting to 3 ball at 41 and was making 39 look like a joke. He is definitely dialed in on his ski and it sounds like things finally came together for him. I said to a couple guys in May that he was going to run 41 off this year. He has some amazing tools at his disposal that allow him to make huge turns and get back in a pass. Kind of reminds me of Jeff Rodgers watching him snap a turn and get back into a pass and get to the next ball early. Greg lives in NY and trains in Florida on the weekends. Burns lots of jet fuel to feed his addiction. I see that he is in Spain signed up for the Big Dawg taking place this weekend. That lake skis great and would love to see him run it again there. That would quiet things down a bit.

 

I am lucky enough to ski with a couple of pros that can run 41 off at 34 mph and do it very often. When they do, it looks very easy.

 

Anyway, congratulations to Greg. Keep it rolling!

 

 

[skispray]

There are so many claims being made in this thread that can’t even remotely be supported by the available evidence. @Than_Bogan has pointed out many times in the past that video and still pictures can be unusually deceptive. And yet we never seem to learn... Look at these still frames I took from the video:

 

 

I watched the video in slow motion and, based on the boat guides and Ski buoys that I could see clearly, I’ve attempted to draw a straight line that is perpendicular to the course. What this clearly shows is that the camera person was significantly off from being inline with the Ski buoys. We have three objects in play here: the boat, the skier, and the camera. If the camera were placed in line with the Turn ball, then presumably we could pause the video when the boat is 90 degrees to us and expect that the skier would be at their highest point in their arc, turning the ball. But since the camera isn’t inline with the buoy, any assessment based on this idea is fundamentally flawed.

 

Adding a line to the still-frames that better represents the angles involved, it looks much more plausible that this is 41 off. To me it seems that as he’s turning, at his highest point in the arc, it’s pretty close to 90 degrees. If you disagree, at least try to show me why!

 

I have no personal involvement in this situation but people are throwing skiers, sites, and class C events under the bus (*cough* @Horton *cough*) but from my read of the evidence there’s just no credible way to do so.

 

[lpskier]

I don’t think the best driver in the world can help someone that is not capable of running 41 get through 41 without chopping up at least one boat guide. A less skilled driver swerving down the lake trying to “help” will make a mistake somewhere and either take the handle away or give the skier slack. I think (and i struggle at 38 but i drive some good skiers) that the skier wants the boat in the middle where he or she can count on the support. If there was “collusion” with the boat and driver, I would expect that the two would have to practice together to find a rythem that works with the boat constantly out of center but there when the skier needs it. Unless that was the case here, and I have no reason to think it was, I think the driver, whoever it was, probably did a very good job here and is not to be faulted or even questioned. In fact, I’d like to know who it was so that if he/ she is in the boat and I’m in the water, I’ll know I’m in for a great pull.

 

Since Greg did it twice, it is highly unlikely that there was a rope shortening error. That could account for one, but not two.

 

Slow boat speed? Not with ZO.

 

John’s Lake is a quirky place to ski, but people run a lot of buoys there. The buoys could be set on the friendly side of tolerance, the rope could be on the long side of tolerance, maybe the boat got a 16.96, but it was a class C in June, not an L/R in September. People weren’t there to break records, they were there to have fun. I have way too much respect for the Autores to think there was any funny business going on. I simply could not fathom that.

 

So a guy with a thick accent from D’Island ran 41 at a C. Good for him, Good for the Autores.