Baller ral Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Any fans out there??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 9400 Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Is there more to this story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Ouch!!!! Something bad just happened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted February 3, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Big Dawg second round, buried tip at buoy 5@35. Very bad fall for that kind of system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ThePantsManCan Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 @ral, are we to presume this is YOUR foot!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted February 3, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Nope, Reflex on my front foot... Very bad injury, though. We are trying to get the boat video to do further analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 I'm assuming this is your front foot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted February 3, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Nope. Fellow skier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 @ral is that your ankle??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted February 3, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 @Klindy, Nope, not my ankle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Ouch. Awful injury no matte what but @ral you have enough hardware already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Bury tip @5 ball @ 35 off ruptured the achillies of one of the guys at our lake on rubber bindings. Injuries can happen n all bindings there are just different trade offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted February 3, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 Was not exactly at the buoy. Was after a very late 5 and on the attempt to get to 6. Buried tip after wake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller XR6Hurricane Posted February 3, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 3, 2013 As someone who skis recreationally for fun and couldn't care less if a certain pair of bindings gets me one more buoy, some of these newer bindings scare the hell out of me. A snowmobile boot has no place on a water ski in my humble opinion. Even the velcro high wrap binding on my '98 Connelly is tighter than I would prefer. And I'm a size 9 using a XL adjustable that is one notch below wide open! The medium and large bindings cut off my circulation! I'm getting a new ski in the spring and will be getting the most conservative bindings possible. It can happen in any binding but I'd rather put the odds in my favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted February 4, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted February 4, 2013 @ral Was the skier in Stealth boots or Fogman's boots? Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted February 4, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 Stealth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rpc29 Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 Reflex isn't fool proof either. I just had surgery (I'm 10 days out) to repair a medial malleolus fracture and deltoid ligament tear that originally stemmed from a fall with a Reflex and a RTP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rpc29 Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 I'm not trashing Reflex in any way, just trying to say that accidents can happen in any binding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 I have been using the D3 Leverage bindings. I got yanked out of both. It broke the plate on the rear binding. I twisted both my ankles but was able to trick ski a few hours later. Not sure what the answer is on avoiding injuries.. Remember, that extra buoy is not worth getting hurt.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted February 4, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted February 4, 2013 Spoke at length to an R&D guy at the nationals on those very boots. Idea of the boot is run it higher up on the leg to a larger stronger bone structure/groups. Not an X-ray reader but that break looks high. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't most ankle injuries lower, in the joint, smaller bones, ligaments and muscles? And typically worse overall in terms of recovery and long term issues with pain, stiffness, range of motion and strength? Not that I would ever want a break but I'll take one higher on the leg. Hmmmm? On second thought and look. It does look to have lower damage as well. Well, it is or was just a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 He broke the medial mallelous off his tibia, and snapped the fib. Mishaft. My guess sudden dorsiflexion and eversion- sudden otf towards the side of the ski that the foot broke. Probably hit bony end range of joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 @GAJ0004 my friend that ruptured his Achilles was on D3 Leverage bindings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 I would be afraid to use them on my old 2000 O'Brien Mapple Signature Model slalom. The Contact Bindings on that ski would release me in most bad falls. It was my favorite ski of all the ones I owned until it started to come apart after 8 seasons. Not as forgiving as my D3 Nomad RCX. I have only been yanked over the front once. The rest of the time it stalls and the handle gets yanked out of my hands. I have avoided lots of nasty falls since I switched to my current ski. My cousin has told me he has seen lots of people get hurt on the hardshell boots. Whenever I buy a new ski I get the bindings made by the same manufacturer. I would suspect the bindings were designed to work with specific performance characteristics of the ski. There is no way I would put the Leverage Bindings on my last ski. They don't release as easy as the Contact binding. If I used them on my last ski I think I would have been potential for serious injury. When hardshell boots came out, I never had any interest in trying them. To me they looked like an accident waiting to happen. Bindings should be snug, but not tight. I do have a scar above my right eye from getting yanked out and hitting the ski. It is always a tough call.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 @GAJ0004 - I am a big believer in hardshells, I just think the manufacture can improve from where we are, but let me ask; if you were downhill skiing, would you doubt the functions of hardshell downhill ski boots with spring loaded releases? The difference is that I believe TWO boots should never be mounted on ONE plate. And at the same time I do not believe that TWO boots should have TWO release units, for Two boots you need a boot that will release both, so they need to be linked, but both ankles need to be allowed to release from the ski in the event that they are stressed. This is what dual rubber boots do, and two reflexes will, and two Radar Stradas will etc. But a fogman/stealth/Exo does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GregDavis Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 Fogman system, I looked at this ski before the guy skied, I talked with him and commented on h ow clean his binding system was. He had releases set very, very, very tight, obviously too tight. They don't have to be that tight. Fogman system is one of the safest systems if set up properly. Not the fault of the binding system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 9400 Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 Been running Fogmans for 10+ years, I've never missed 1 day due to binding related injuries. As Greg pointed out above, they don't need to be super tight. My tension is set relatively light just to air on the side of safety. Mine probably release a little to easily but have never pre-released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller nate93 Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 I too have Fogman bindings and also set the releases light. I come off the ski if I pop the tail. Best system I have found so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted February 4, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 4, 2013 People can get hurt on anything. I have friends that got hurt last year on rubber and on Fogman's. if the wrong thing happens the results will be bad no matter how well set up your binding system is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 I have only gone downhill skiing once. It is a different animal.. With water skiing you have the problem of digging the tip of your ski under water. The bindings on downhill skis came off when my skis slipped out from under me. One of these days I will try a hardshell binding. I may try it for trick skiing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 2tracmind Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 Waterski bindings change very little until the advent of wakeboarding. As wb grew and they developed new types of bindings waterskiing started to inovate. Rubber bindings have become much stiffer and "boot" like. Data on injuries rates would be interesting, but I would like to see five years of data from1990 to 1995 and compare it to 2007 to 2012. My impression is minor and major foot injuries have increased significantly since all types of bindings have become stiffer. A well fitted Wiley's binding would be the safest choice in my mind. The "downhill skiing" like release systems on the market are late 70's technology without diagonal release systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Alberto Soares Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 Rest of the history: The skier who got hurt is a closer friend, I went to the emergency with him after the accident and he told me that it was his fault. First - when he first mounted the front and back brackets on the ski he made a mistake and did not put them in the correct aligment. He was afraid of making other holes into the ski so he left the way it was. As it was not correct he had to tie the release mechanism to the maximum otherwise it would pre release. Second - going into the 6th bouy he was totally out of control, fighting the boat trying to get a piece of 6. He felt in the way to 6, after the second wake the ski took off the water and got back diving with the tip. The doctor mentioned that looked like the fracture was due a strong compression. Another friend was filming so we could watch frame by frame, it was horrible. The good news - The surgery was a success and the level of pain now is about 3 (0-10). Saturday he will come back to Brazil, in about 30 days will start moving/walking, in 60 days physiotherapy, doctor expects he will return to sports in about 120-150 days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 9400 Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thanks Alberto. Hope your friend heals quickly and gets back on the water soon (relatively speaking). I have run mine tight before but would feel some tweaking on the forward type falls, that is why I run mine looser than probably recommended. It comes off more often than it should in falls, but has never come off unexpectedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 When drilling holes through a carbon top and release property is dependent on accuracy, always,always drill through an accurate template. Same goes for molding in inserts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rfa Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 Horrible photos...sorry about the injury! I'm going on 10 yrs on Fogmans and still believe they are one of the (if not "the") safest systems available. This, despite my son breaking his ankle last summer (one of the friends @chef23 mentioned) on his new Diablos (out the front, stuffed tip, released a split second too late - he was only about 115lbs and I may have had the release tension set a bit to high...). In my own case as I have mentioned previously, great record...two pre-releases (one due to releases moving on adapter plate - my bad,- and one unexplained). not bad in 10 yrs. I may have misunderstood @bracemaker point about both ankles releasing from the ski, but that is what necessarily happens w/ Fogmans. They either release or they don't...but one can NEVER release w/o the other. As for the installation and maintenance of the system, yes it must be very accurate (location and spring tension) and one must keep the releases in good operating condition. Best wishes for the injured skier. (as a Portuguese skier, let me wish the Brazilian gentleman quick recovery in his native language...rápidas melhoras!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 @rfa - they both release on a single plate. If I had to stand in slalom stance and stood behind you, and then I shoved you forwards what would occur? Do your heels raise at the same time? What if your front knee is bent and your rear is straight? When both bindings come off on single plate (goode powershells, fogmans, exo's, FM's on a plate) then you have a situation where you can be loading your front foot while your back ankle is trying to lift off the ski. Ideally in this situation the rear foot should be able to lift/pop from the release, even while loading the front heel, the front heel may start to unload shortly later, or may be lifting same time. It is that situation where I feel like the single plate releases can torque your legs/ankles around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 To be even more clear - this is where I think design needs to continue! A single plate with an overload protection feature for the ankles might be indicated. Nothing is perfect, I just like to be aware of where each binding is great, and where its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rfa Posted February 5, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 5, 2013 @bracemaker - points well made...well taken! It is that "split-second" time when one foot may be loaded more than the other that causes Fogman injuries (other than when/if they don't release at all). Proper tension/alignment of the system is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted February 5, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted February 5, 2013 Do snow skiers have discussions like this? Varied systems in their sport with injuries a plenty. Nature of the beast. I'm sure any given downhill skier thinks their system is the best. Advancements in snow ski equipment in the last 10 yrs has been amazing. Good to see the water ski companies trying new things and pressing on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brady Posted February 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 8, 2013 What am I missing? Where is the video feed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmaster Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 For years and years the discussions are identical. Bindings did not really change. People get hurt in all kinds of bindings and continue to ski against the odds. Every year we get several new revolutionary ski models. Just put your old crappy bindings on the brand new rocket, get a few more balls and wait for a new injury to happen. I love our sport. I sacrified a lot to ski. I had three surgeries related to the sport. I broke my ankle in Fogman bindings. I tried all other existing bindings. I'm still on Fogmans because they are as good/bad as anything out there with double hard-shells. But I'm pissed that the whole water ski industry is incapable of making slalom ski bindings that release properly in 21st century, when the snow ski industry resolved this problem ages/centuries ago...There will always be injuries but there will be a lot less once safe waterski bindings appear (the ones that release when they need to). Maybe in 22nd century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted February 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 9, 2013 @patmaster , I had both Fogman Diablos (in wich I hurt my ankles) and HO exos Release properties of the exos are far better than Fogmans, stuff the tip offside turn (wich were I hurt my ankles in Fogmans) exos always release when they should whereas the release of Fogmans is best described as sporadic. I'm aware that people have hurt themselves in exos too but to say nothing has evolved regarding bindings is a strech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmaster Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 @DanE, I hear you and agree. Tried EXOs myself and could ski well. Did not like the boot comfort. Currently on black Fogmans with (GOODE) Intuition liners and orthopedic insole. Can't beat the comfort. Given how (un)popular the EXOs are, I was not in the mood to adapt. But I appreciate your comments about offside tip dive and agree! EXOs were a nice try but it did not work out. In my book it works out when the pros start using a product. Double Reflex is interesting but who can guarantee that both feet will release at the same time? I wish we had something that snow skiers have - our favorite hard boots (shells) that we could just move from one ski to another thanks to a standardized, safe binding system. Now, that's my dream. Actually, with Fogmans and Rob Clarke's adaptor plate I come kind of close but all this is still garage technology! There was a Fogman prototype years ago that made sense. Both boots clicked in the middle, so as soon as one released the other had to. I hope someone will revisit this idea one day. Ski well and ski safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted February 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 9, 2013 @patmaster - FM has had that for years. http://www.jagersport.com/images/FMXQuattros.JPG The front boot has a key to the toe block, the middles link together with a key/receiver, and the rear is a snowski spring barrel release (voile). It is essentially movable from ski to ski - there is an adjustment for the pin spacing, but if you had multiple skis set up on your boots that would be OK. If you have different boot sizes it may not match boot to boot. The middle point of the boots is usually secured with some hook and loop velcro (Not the dual lock/tape used by goode) There is a part called a "Z-Clip" which is supposed to reduce the dependency on the velcro by forming a toe hold for the rear boot. Again not perfect - but doesn't drill into ski. It is a viable system, a bit heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted February 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 9, 2013 totally agree with @patmaster, the twin release is the real challenge ( and solution). Never tried the FM Quattro allthough it has this idea, always thought it looked made up out of a lot of nuts, bolts, plates, velcro etc. not exactly a set and forget system like most of us need. Even read it's kind of prone to pre release also. I myself have not had great success skiing in hardshells in general, Always ski better in rubber. Looking Into hardshells for comfort (and consistency) reasons, EXOs have come closest to meeting my needs, but not really there yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmaster Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 @BraceMaker - good point. But you said it at the end, viable, heavy and a bit complicated (my comment). That's probably why it never took off in large numbers and no pros are using it. Even JT is/was on Evolutions. Still all of you guys that snow ski know what I wish for. Imagine, just take your pair of hardshells when you head to Florida and try out a bunch of new skis in a day...all with the boots you are used to. I know it is doable now as well, but it is not nearly as simple as in snow ski industry. Well, one can dream! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted February 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 9, 2013 I think the complexity can be mitigated a bit. My pair are older and lots of the bits are obviously hand fitted. The newer pairs have more CNC parts - which means tolerences that are closer, so obviously fewer adjustments required. The Silvretta boot is a DIN boot, so if you went RTP, and stuck to 404 or 500 (not both) boots, then you can bring your shell, you'd have to move the tongue, but then again, boots have to be fitted to the DIN as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted February 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 10, 2013 I like that double pin set up @dfw - do you set them at the same numbers? What is the logic versus the front "power block" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmaster Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 @efw, LOL great post. Will add on but gotta drive 8 hours home today, so I'll do it later! I go way back with Terence so I like when he is "involved"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted February 10, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted February 10, 2013 S@&t can happen even to very skilled athletes with well installed and tuned material with plenty of R&D on it... http://youtu.be/VwA5Oh8DHvA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted February 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted February 10, 2013 Alpine racers has there release points set very high, injuries due to bindings not releasing is very likely to happen allthough this particular accident wasn't one of them. She totalled her knee in the landing, looked to me she was slightly off in direction from the jump and tried intuevly to correct her direction by aggressively edging her right ski in the landing. This was SG where the atheletes are only allowed to visually inspect and memorize the course prior to start (unlike DH where they get to ski through it several times) the start was postponed due to bad weather several hours at 15 min a time. Made it very difficult for the competitors to recall every single jump and turn and focus like they needed to, lots of similar mistakes and close calls from other competitors. Nevertheless a nasty accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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