Trace / The Action Sports Tracker

[MattP]

@Horton‌ useless.

[dlokshin]

The Ski data is very similar. Here is one of @Horton‌ run from the Ski.

http://surf.traceup.com/stats/u?uId=381988&vId=410

 

 

I think the helmet data is pretty far from useless.

[MattP]

@dlokshin‌ thats what I was looking for thanks.

 

I don't think helmet data holds the same level of usefulness when you are looking for a skis path through the course especially at shorter line lengths.

[Skoot1123]

@dlokshin - would it be possible to get head bobble from the helmet data? That could be useful data in my opinion.

[Horton]

@Skoot1123‌ ?

[Skoot1123]

@horton - I'm thinking more of when your turning the ski - would the helmet data be able to catch your head not being level. You would already have a baseline from the helmet right before the pullout - so the data should be able to tell you if your head is tilted to one side, level, or moving around a lot/little. Didn't know if GPS/Trace would or could catch that.

[bbirlew]

Here is the latest details view I've coded up. Before you start using the program you can enter as many skiers as you like and save ski setup info, etc.

You then select a skier when importing data and it will attach your current ski and setup to the pass. Then when you select a historical pass for analysis or comparison, it will pull up that data with it.

The speeds are currently in Km/h unless noted, but it will be a configuration variable eventually...

Let me know what other types of info would be useful and I'll see what I can do...

Brad

 

[mwetskier]

@bbirlew -i assume your skier speeds are in Kph since theres no way these guys are reaching 83 -84 Mph -right? a close conversion is to divide kph by 0.6095 so for example 84 kph =51.198 mph.

[bbirlew]

@mwetskier‌, yes, km/h.

Like I mentioned in the post above there will be a user setting for how you want it displayed, but for now that is what comes from the sensor.

[MattP]

@Horton have you had a chance to gather more trace data?

[Horton]

@MattP‌ I did not ski this weekend. The weekend before was pretty much a party foul. Not sure if I did some thing wrong or what

[dlokshin]

Trace is being used for all sorts of stuff, what sort of info are you looking for?

[DefectiveDave]

Has anyone been using this device in the 9 months since we last talked about it? I thought at the time that @Horton's original videos showed great promise, even if there were just a bit out of sync. Did it prove too finicky or inaccurate maybe?

 

Even going back to them now I feel there's a lot that I personally can learn from them and I'm debating whether or not to get one myself so I can make comparisons. The 5Hz GPS refresh rate doesn't bother me like it does others as I think the average (maybe interpolated) performance of 0.2 seconds is plenty enough to draw some general conclusions. It also provides a very relate-able, objective, granular, and differentiable quantitative metric (velocity) which can be used at all points in the course.

 

While RAT-IPA provides more temporally resolved, and probably more accurate, data at the moment, this is relatively cheap and best of all COTS. It also has the benefit of providing "good" data with a slack line. The only thing holding me back is the lack of other comparative data by others.

 

@Horton is a good start, but I'd love to see data from some of the other great skiers on BoS. LFF vs. RFF, one-handed vs two-handed gates, radar vs. d3 vs. radar vs. HO vs. denali vs. connelly, the list goes on. If the tech is as good as it appears in Horton's videos, then these comparisons could already be meaningful even if the temporal resolution isn't quite there yet.

 

I would get the ball rolling, but my immediate group of skiers (myself included) would only provide the low-end of the performance/ability spectrum. I doubt that would be useful to anyone other than ourselves.

 

Another option I've been considering is buying one and shipping it around to skiers who would be interested in generating the baseline data.

[Horton]

@DefectiveDave I am waiting for the next gen stuff. I think the Trace data was funky because it is early days for this tech. Perhaps http://www.xensr.com/ will work better.

[bbirlew]

@DefectiveDave,

I've been building my android app, Swerve, to plot any different type of data I can get my hands on (position/angle/velocity/rope tension/etc) as well as hopefully in the future sync up with video to really give a clear picture of what is going on.

 

Unfortunately I haven't had much time to work on it this summer, but I'm still actively developing it (and seeking help if anyone wants to dig into it!!)

 

After playing with the data from trace I was excited and figured it was worth further exploration but didn't want to buy a sensor myself. I had already ordered another device (xensr) that was supposed to be to market around the same time and I didn't want to spend too much money on this project. I am still waiting for my xensr over a year later but it looks like they will ship soon.

Xensr had promised a few cool things:

1) ability to get the data in real time or after each pass for analysis while you are dropped at the end of course. Trace requires an internet connection and communication with their servers to get the data

2) were promising higher resolution interpolated data at higher frequency.

3) were offering things like 'ski roll angle' and other parameters that were not available on trace.

 

I have also enjoyed working with the IPA gang and think I can get some more useful data out of that system with further data processing.

 

Cheers,

Brad

 

 

[DefectiveDave]

@bbirlew and @Horton,

 

Thanks guys, so it looks like we're waiting on the 2nd generation hardware. Hopefully the Xensr doesn't turn out to be vaporware, but I did at least find this recent video (from 10/16/2015) where they are claiming to release next month:

 

http://www.wltx.com/video/3977619349001/1/CES-2015---Xensr-Quickie

 

They're also claiming significantly higher GPS temporal resolution (40-100 Hz depending on where you look). Seems like it is worth waiting on the Xensr at this point given that winter is fast approaching.

 

@bbirlew,

 

I have been keeping up with the RAT-IPA-Swerve development and it's exciting stuff. I'll end up picking up the Xensr eventually, in which case I will be happy to provide data if it helps you guys out. I'm hoping that it catches on and we can start building a useful database in addition to having the real-time analysis capability.

 

Once I get the Xensr (or maybe another product emerges) I will be trying to attach it to as many skiers as possible. What good is a single data point? :-D

[Kelvin]

Got an email from xensr.com this week. Units should be shipping Nov 9th, but I'm not holding my breath.

[DefectiveDave]

@Kelvin,

 

That matches up with what I saw in the clip I just posted above. It looks like we simul-posted so I didn't see your post first.

[Horton]

The owner of Xensr is a skier....

[dlokshin]

Hey All,

 

Sorry I"m late to the convo.

 

@bbirlew We've actually come out with v2 of Trace which comes with a bunch of upgrades (10x the accuracy, for example). We also have a push API now, that gives you raw data in a cleaned format that you can use for your development. We have people from all sorts of disciplines using that API now.

 

The video aspect has also gotten a big upgrade, and the auto-editor is now available for Mac which will create videos with overlay within seconds.

 

@Horton Let's test again!

 

Best,

David

[Horton]

@dlokshin Hell yea! I am off the water for month or so but you know I want the data! I will be in touch.

[Kelvin]

Received this email from the guys at Xensr today. Maybe it is actually going to ship this week. Still not going to hold my breath.

 

"As we are preparing to ship your order, if you have any address change needed, please advise ASAP so we can ensure delivery.

 

Thank you in advance for your attention to this and as always, please let me know if you should need anything further.

 

T*** B****"

 

[Kelvin]

Received this email from the guys at Xensr today. Maybe it is actually going to ship this week. Still not going to hold my breath.

 

"As we are preparing to ship your order, if you have any address change needed, please advise ASAP so we can ensure delivery.

 

Thank you in advance for your attention to this and as always, please let me know if you should need anything further.

 

T*** B****"

 

[bbirlew]

@Kelvin, @horton,

My Xensr shipped yesterday.

Won't be on the water until spring but I plan to have some fun on the snowboard or mt bike in the mean time.

Still waiting for the developers API though to have some real fun with it!

 

I emailed @dlokshin a few weeks ago about the new trace API but still waiting to hear back.

 

Looking forward to spring!!

[Kelvin]

@bbirlew, @Horton mine has shipped as well. Scheduled to arrive on 12/23. I won't be using it until spring, but I might be able to convince my son or the Canadians living in the neighborhood to give it a test drive. Anxious to see how it does with jump distances.

[DefectiveDave]

@scotchipman ,

 

@dlokshin says above they're using 2nd gen hardware in the current Trace. It's kind of buried in the website, but it looks like they updated around the July timeframe. See here:

 

http://support.traceup.com/customer/portal/questions/12914119-new-trace-model-2-15-

 

It's a little confusing because they didn't change the name for the new hardware. The claims are:

 

* 10x more sensitive and accurate

* 20% smaller + 20% lighter

* 20% faster syncing with the phone

* New locking mechanism that is easier to use and much stronger mechanically

* A handful of other goodies too!

 

I'd love to know which is better as well. Both Trace and Xensr appear to have 5 Hz GPS update rates and utilize IMUs with significantly higher data collection rates. I suspect they will perform similarly well for skiing. As for the immediate future, my money is on Trace to be the more mature product given it's longer history and being on it's 2nd hardware cycle.

 

However, I believe that for our sport it will boil down to the device for which our resident data junkies develop the right tools. Given that @bbirlew and @Kelvin both have Xensr's maybe the smart money is there so long as the API is decent.

 

Time will tell. I can't wait to hear what @bbirlew and @Kelvin have to say. I know I will be getting either a Xensr or Trace in the spring!

[Horton]

I may be testing the new unit soon

[DefectiveDave]

@Horton,

 

Awesome! Are you referring to the updated Trace or the Xensr?

[CsSkis]

@Horton, and others. Have any of you taken a look at the Garmin Virb Xe and the GPS and acceleration data that it purports to be able to track and plot? It seems to me that this would be a more capable platform. Data with 60fps HD video.

 

http://virb.garmin.com/en-US/virb-xe

 

Maybe Horton can convince Garmin to send a sample his way.

[Horton]

I do not see that the Garmin stuff uses accelerometers. Straight GPS is unlikely to give use anything useful. Trace and Xensr are designed to capture a lot more data.

[CsSkis]

@Horton

Yep, the Garmin has built in accelerometers and it also has an external app that allows you to create plots (including ski, or skier, path) and sort data.

 

From Garmin's web-site:

Virb XE

•Accelerometer: Yes

•Altimeter: No

•Waterproof to 50 meters without a dive case

•Image stabilization: Yes (gyro-enhanced)

•Lens distortion correction: Yes

•Hydrophobic lens coating: Yes

 

Plus, if you read through the user manual, you can see that additional sensors can be linked to the camera.

 

Basic

Speed, Distance, G-Force, Track Angle/Heading

 

With additional "Ant+" compatible sensors

Path, Altitude, Water Depth, Apparent Wind Angle, Apparent Wind Speed, True Wind Speed, Temperature, Heart Rate (with heart rate strap), Boat Engine RPM

 

[Waternut]

I really want a unit like this for waterskiing and also snow skiing. I've been seriously considering Trace because it's been around for a while and I like their Trace Snow app for snow skiing. However, I must say that I'm a bit gun shy because Trace's customer service is non-existent. Here's an example of a simple question I asked last year (read bottom to top). I know that's the free app and not the $200 device but the app is the same for snow skiing regardless. Since you can't delete data yourself, I also asked about getting an accidental Trace session deleted about a month ago as it messes up my stats and got nothing but crickets.

 

 

[dlokshin]

Hey @Waternut, fair point on the customer support. Let me start by saying that the purchase of Trace gives you what I would consider awesome customer support that I personally supervise. If you find that's not the case after you purchase a Trace, I'll personally Venmo you back the $200 :).

 

The free Trace Snow app is now into the high hundreds of thousands of users. We regularly have more than 15,000 people uploading data each day (not to mention much more using the app on a daily basis). We try to provide community answers and an FAQ that answers a lot of these questions (like 'What is sustained speed?': http://support.traceup.com/customer/portal/questions/175823-sustained-speed) but we can't service that number of people on an individual basis.

 

When you've used a device, you get put into a seperate queue in terms of support. Makes it easier / manageable).