reflex pre-release problem

[sfriis]

I just got a new (replacement) Reflex front binding (boot+750 release), the old (black) one worked perfect.

 

BUT The new setup with White&black boot kept releasing in the middle of wake crossing with hard falls as a result.

 

I kept tightening the binding, until i reached 9 - still the boot would release - I changed the release back to my old one - and again a release and hard fall?

 

I finally found, that the new boot (with strap) is touching the release when I ski too far back on the ski - allowing my front leg to lean back and the strap to touch the release - see pic.

 

This is not acceptable. My question is now: Has anybody else experienced this? And how can I fix it?

 

Thanks

 

[DavidN]

Wow!

Have to check that on my (same) setup.

I had my worst crash ever, a few weeks ago due to a pre-release off the 2nd wake. Hope not to find the same issue here!

[ForrestGump]

Don't lean back???

[sfriis]

haha..

 

reflex writes:

 

Reflex White Hardshell

 

The white upper cuff has more torsion flexibility to release the leg above the ankle providing greater accuracy and comfort. Also, the white cuff allows the skier to move more on the rear before the wake. A flexion brake made out of webbing strap limits the forward flexion and allows the skier to have more power on the tip of the ski.

[BraceMaker]

Start by verifying the toe bar and release are in the correct holes on the plate.

[Deanoski]

sounds like you need to move the heel piece forward hole on the block that holds the reflex release.

 

[Lovell]

Make sure you have the right size plate.

I got a new reflex system and suffered similarly the first time I tried it. Turns out the retailer sent me the wrong plate. Switched to the right sized plate and everything worked.

[sfriis]

everything is correct mounted on correct plate etc. I have used reflex black binding for 5y + without problems. I will double check if Reflex has changed recommended distances\setup but I doubt it. The boot fits nice and firmly

[Horton]

@sfriis No you do not have everything mounted correctly. You should not feel bad. It is an easy mistake to make.

 

Just from the image you posted above it looks like the hardware that connects the release to the plate needs to go forward on the plate. When you get all that straight you need to do follow the process in the below video.

 

[OldboyII]

@sfriis something wrong. release unit should not be that vertical position.

In addition to your particular problem it also changes release force and the way how it works. In this vertical position it may not release when it is needed. Silvreta is very sensitive to angles.

that how it should be.

 

[BraceMaker]

Bingo - when too vertical you can "pull" the release off the heel ledge with out popping it fairly easily and the boot can slide fore/aft on the plate as the vector of the release generates essentially zero forwards pressure.

 

This was what was really nice on the FM toe bar versions of reflex releases as you could really dial in the position of the boot in relationship to the release but then again it could easily be wrong.

[ski6]

@sfriis - I think I may be able to help. The same thing was happening to my dad.

 

Basically what happens is that the screw(that is holding the tether to the upper-cuff) is out too far and not countersunk correctly.

 

So when you get real far back(likely out of the turn), the screws gets pushed under the release mechanism and then when you lean forward again it causes the release mechanism to release.(when you now at the wakes!).

 

It sounds really silly but try countersunk it and It should help solve your problems.

 

See picture below. I have some videos in dropbox for anyone interested.

 

Video can viewed here -

 

 

 

 

 

[dchristman]

@OldboyII From your picture, I could easily see the same thing that @sfriis is describing happen with your boot if not for those stopper blocks that were added to the SuperShell.

[Horton]

@ski6 No. From the picture in the first post it looks like the geometry of the release and the boot are wrong. When the release is closed it should push the boot forward. With the release mounted too far back the release pushes down and is does not perform as it is intended.

 

If that screw touches the release as in your pictures I think yours is also wrong.

[Horton]

Everyone please see this image from Reflex. See how the release is angled back???

 

[sfriis]

in the image the release has not been mounted/clicked in - the plastic release doesn't touch the steel frame - but I will double check - and also try to move the release forward => more angel

[Horton]

@sfriis if you will click it in and then post another image that shows the whole back assembly we can make sure I am sending you in the right direction.

[sfriis]

@ski6 great the video #1 is exactly what is happening for me - i will move the screw (and maybe angle the release more) the angle of the binding in your video looks very much like mine today.

 

incredible that Reflex doesn't give more accurate measures for release placement and angle and describes possible problems with thickness of strap or screw not being countersunk.

 

last resort is back to the good old black boot.

[ski6]

@Horton

If you look at some of the actual pictures on their website, the release's are quite upright but again very subjective in pictures.

 

However, in the normal position(without bending the upper-cuff backwards towards the release), the boot shouldn't be touching and I agree 100% with this.

 

My understanding is that the 1st picture @sfriis posted is them bending the upper-cuff back wards and not in the "normal upright position"

 

From my experience, the issue comes when you learn far back(again you have to be super far back) which causes the screw to get stuck under the lip of the release. As you come forward again, the screw(now stuck under the lip) then push the lip up and the boot releases.

 

Did you take a look at the videos?

 

I am not saying that I am correct but the fact that we had 5 Reflex boots, 4 of them were releasing incorrectly and those were the four that weren't countersunk correctly, it may be worth a shot.

 

@sfriis hope you come right! :)

[Horton]

Ok I am not going to go around and around on this. Last time.

 

If the the top assembly of the release is close to vertical then your mounts are too far back. For everything to work as designed the assembly needs to be angled away and it should require some effort to click in. If the release is mostly pushing down on the boot and not driving the shell forward it is wrong.

 

 

[skialex]

Assuming that you have followed the Reflex instructions correctly the picture doesn't show that the release is vertical, it could be the cuff that is pulled backwards to show how close to the release the strap screw could get.

I would try the countersunk thing suggested and maybe add stoppers to the back under the cuff to decrease the backward movement like on the Supershell.

[sfriis]

Thanks a lot @ski6 and @skialex, Yes the cuff is pulled back on the picture - as said I never had this issue with the old black boot - same setup (as recommended from Reflex).

 

I will try your suggestions

[sfriis]

will also try to move release to front hole => more angel on release :)

[skialex]

@sfriis if the boot is loosely connected with the plate when the release is locked, yes move the release to the forward hole.

If it is tightly fitting then moving forward will add more force from the heel block to the release mechanism making it easier to pop open with a lot less force from the skier (pre-release).

[cacman]

I made taller black stoppers. Not for release issue but feel boot shouldn't go back that far.

[sfriis]

@skialex - The boot is not loosely connected - it was only to make more angle (distance) from the back of the boot to the release.

 

@cacman - ok but then why not use the black boot? I think I will just go back on the black one - I dont ski better with the white, but it looks better ;)

[cacman]

I'm starting to wonder that myself.

[eleeski]

Why would you ever want to have a boot that is soft in back?

 

OK, some poorly designed boots might cause pain if you fall backwards at the boot top (I had a boot top fracture from a fall out the back snow skiing that was common with Nordica Red Racers a half century ago). Nobody has complained about that with any of the waterski hardshells.

 

While there's OK support in the liners, there's a lot of us pinning the cuffs forward to get more support. I don't understand the philosophy behind the new boot. But I know a few people who are skiing great on that boot.

 

Personally, I'd pin the cuff forward. There's a thread somewhere where @AdamCord did some excellent research regarding forward lean angles. Remove the strap and get solid material there. I've use old binding rubber scraps as a durable bridge between the cuff and the foot. Use care placing the bolts so they don't interfere with the Silveretta clip and put some protection over the protruding bolt end (plastic acorn nuts as a double nut are great). Be careful just bolting things together as there can be a lot of stress there and I've torn the plastic with straight bolting. I use a rubber grommet lining the holes (actually it's rubber vacuum tubing around the bolt cut a bit long so it squishes tight but flexible in the plastic). Binding rubber is flexible enough that I can bolt it directly. Use 6 32 or 8 32 stainless bolts with fender washers.

 

One final note, my lake goes through some extreme temperature swings. A setup in a comfortable air conditioned room might not be the same in the heat at my lake.

 

Eric