HELP! I've not fallen, but I can't get up!!

[SkipGundlach]

My apologies in advance of what will inevitably turn out to be lengthy.

 

Background:  I'm 78 years old.  After living 30 years on a lake with the last 7 of them course skiing, I lived and cruised 15 (2007-2022) years on a sailboat. I climbed the 140-ft/220 steps St. Augustine Lighthouse with no knee pain 2 years ago,and other greater or lesser ones earlier in that time.  I've now lived 18 months ashore.  I believe I'm reasonably fit. 

 

Today I have notable patellofemoral pain on knee effort.  Standing from a chair, e.g., or squats, or doing seated leg curls forward is very painful. (Reverse - pulling - is very much less so.)  That is the only segment of either upper or lower body work I do 4x weekly at gym, now for a year (living on a cruising sailboat was a great way to stay in general good shape!), where I have any pain.

 

~10 years ago I managed to get up behind a jet ski after it did circles until coming up on plane before pulling.  Before I sold everything and moved aboard my cruising sailboat, I always wanted a full-on hot start aboard my custom 72" HO with "Nautique" on the bottom (I was 225 and 6-3+ and am 14EE with full xxxl boots; ). 

 

So, last week, behind a Nautique, and on a not-my-ski (my son can't find it in the garbage dump of his basement, but had a wider 69" HO Charger with widely adjustable full boots which - with much soap - accepted my feet), I go in for my first pull.  The last regular-boat pull (~2010?) many years ago, after many years without skiing, I had needed a more typical rolling throttle start, so that's what I asked for this time.  I got out of the water but could not get up.  No issues with grip; my knees pushed hard enough against my chest that nearly a week later, I still can't sniff or cough without pain.  But my left buttock got blasted by the water torrent as I failed to get up off the ski.  On the possibility that I just didn't  have the strength on a smaller ski, I tried a pair.  Essentially the same result.

 

Yet, for a week I was coaching little kids and newbie adults, and remembered some of my mechanics that perhaps I didn't  do on that thwarted set of attempts.  Not rotating my hips adequately?  Inadequate back strength?  Or all down to the knee pain leading to lack of eventual leg strength?  All of the above?

 

I feel like I should be able to get up, and once I rediscover what I used to do effortlessly, should be able to ski many more years (one of the early VHS training tapes I and my son watched had an 86 year old driver for the camp doing the course, e.g.) on the lake to which I'll move in a year or so.

 

Ideas?  I likely won't get another chance to ski before my move, but also will have that time to work out and work on whatever portion of my mechanics which is failing.  And finally, has anyone had the same pain issues but has resolved them?

 

Thanks.

 

--

The years thunder by. 

The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. 

Before we know it, the tomb is sealed.
 

- Sterling Hayden

[Andre]

Welcome to BOS! This recent thread might help...

 

[lpskier]

If you can find one, try getting up behind a boat with a tower and the rope attached to the tower. The angle of the rope will be more “up” rather than pulling you through the water. Alternatively, shorten the rope to 35 off. Again, you will get more pull up and less pull through the water. 

[markn]

When teaching people to slalom, after the boom, we use the "get it up rope handle", better known as EZ-up handle.  The handle "pulls the ski" and keeps it straight.  Check out Perfski.  They have them.  

[rawly]

If you’re for real , Skip , you will have no problem finding a baller willing to help you out before the move next year.You’d become a minor celebrity around here for getting back into it at your age. Doubt anyone would have a loner ski you could squeeze those huge feet into though. If your efforts at getting up are anywhere near your creative writing skills , you got this. I really liked the jet ski part. I do that with tubers. Get the boat up to a descent speed while doing circles around the tube that is staying in the center of the circles , then you straighten the boat out , give it some gas and they jump the wake. We call it a slingshot. I do see the possibilities of a jet ski slingshot with a small child on a pair of trick skis 🤷‍♂️

[SkipGundlach]

16 hours ago, markn said:

When teaching people to slalom, after the boom, we use the "get it up rope handle", better known as EZ-up handle.  The handle "pulls the ski" and keeps it straight.  Check out Perfski.  They have them.  

When I was actively skiing, I made  my own  handles and one for my wife, mimicking the EZUp.  At the time there was a supplier who was into my concept (rec.sport.waterski days, if any of you are old enough to remember NNTP - long before forums), and supplied my various colors for my regular take-offs, and her RWB colored EZ clone.

 

I had no challenge getting out;  my left buttock STILL hurts; it was the standing part which was challenging...

[SkipGundlach]

7 hours ago, rawly said:

If you’re for real , Skip , you will have no problem finding a baller willing to help you out before the move next year.You’d become a minor celebrity around here for getting back into it at your age. Doubt anyone would have a loner ski you could squeeze those huge feet into though. If your efforts at getting up are anywhere near your creative writing skills , you got this. I really liked the jet ski part. I do that with tubers. Get the boat up to a descent speed while doing circles around the tube that is staying in the center of the circles , then you straighten the boat out , give it some gas and they jump the wake. We call it a slingshot. I do see the possibilities of a jet ski slingshot with a small child on a pair of trick skis 🤷‍♂️

Really.  Search, my name on the internet 🙂

 

I'm currently away from my home and thus my 8GB of photos, of which there are many of me going around a ball (I used a digital movie camera on whatever the mount which had the line through it, thus tracking me, to check my form, and captured frames from it)...

 

Unfortunately, I now live in FL, in a condo in Vero Beach, and won't be back on skiing water (or at least presumed) until the homes (my tiny next to my son's regular lake home) are complete.  With any luck I'll be able to  retrieve my 72" custom HO by then; it's not gone, merely 'lost' in the miasma of my son's basement.

 

I strongly suspect I need either new knees or figuring out how to work out to the degree that I have more leg-push strength without the pain (which I suspect has led to atrophy in that aspect; I can do thigh adduction and abduction at over 200#, but no more than 70# front seated lift, e.g., due to pain).

 

As to the slingshot,  in my early days, I had my daughter driving at 12, doing circles in the underpowered 16' wood runabout until  it got up on plane (and me up on 2)...

 

So: anyone here had this knee issue and overcome it?

 

 

[SkipGundlach]

21 hours ago, Andre said:

Welcome to BOS! This recent thread might help...

 

Yah, I'm aware...

 

Recall that I got out just fine.  My left buttock  still hurts from the time I spent on  top of the water, with my butt on my heels!

 

Part of my teaching  newbies/kids to ski includes thrusting hips forward and making a straight line with shoulders, hips and ankles.  Sometimes, as I stand up if I'm not driving, and make obscene movements with my hips, I can  get the skier to adjust 🙂 😁

 

 

[SkipGundlach]

18 hours ago, lpskier said:

If you can find one, try getting up behind a boat with a tower and the rope attached to the tower. The angle of the rope will be more “up” rather than pulling you through the water. Alternatively, shorten the rope to 35 off. Again, you will get more pull up and less pull through the water. 

Thanks.  I have no current connections  nor locale  (used  to live on Lake Lanier in GA), and will need to recover my ski before any further attempts.  But that's a good idea.  Our expected boat may have such a tower, but likely won't be one of the hybrids, as both too big and too expensive, never mind the wake.  Something like a Malibu with a scoop to pull the stern down, perhaps.

 

But keep me in mind; if I succeed in getting my son to do a deep search, I may have it before again living in GA!

[BraceMaker]

Patellar pain can be dealt with a few ways.  The most direct would be to wear some form of stabilizing knee brace, generally speaking the bone drifts laterally and you'd use a brace with a J shaped pad to block this motion.  You could also tape.

But also your leg extension muscles the quadriceps  have 4 (quad) compartments and those different muscle groups can be strengthened.  A shortcut hack is to climb stairs backwards.  Find something around your house or in your community and just walk up stairs backwards, focus on the front knee for deep water starts but if both knees hurt do this for both sides just slowly go up stairs backwards.  It sounds stupid but it works.  But focusing effort into the inner most of those muscles will help google Vastus medialis strengthening.

Your knee extensors and butt work similarly both do the same job so a bad knee will sometimes mean you have to use your butt.  They work together though so work on both!

 

[BobF]

I had some patellar tendon issues a couple of years back, and was referred to "eccentric knee exercises" (Slow, lengthening movements, not just because I'm weird).  They helped.

The biggest immediate help for me at the time, was changing the start.  If you have the flexibility to do it, try and think about pressing your chest/vest up against your front knee in the pullup.  For me, this allowed the boat to pull me up without pressing out until I was out of the water.  Much less pressure on both knees and lower back.  Still do it to this day, even though my knee issues have subsided.  Hope this helps.

[SkipGundlach]

4 minutes ago, BraceMaker said:

Patellar pain can be dealt with a few ways.  The most direct would be to wear some form of stabilizing knee brace, generally speaking the bone drifts laterally and you'd use a brace with a J shaped pad to block this motion.  You could also tape.

But also your leg extension muscles the quadriceps  have 4 (quad) compartments and those different muscle groups can be strengthened.  A shortcut hack is to climb stairs backwards.  Find something around your house or in your community and just walk up stairs backwards, focus on the front knee for deep water starts but if both knees hurt do this for both sides just slowly go up stairs backwards.  It sounds stupid but it works.  But focusing effort into the inner most of those muscles will help google Vastus medialis strengthening.

Your knee extensors and butt work similarly both do the same job so a bad knee will sometimes mean you have to use your butt.  They work together though so work on both!

 

thanks!  I did look  it up; unfortunately (or fortunately; I would hate to have any OTHER pain centers) the description of the pain areas is  not what I have.  My pain is solely at the tip of the upper (toward my pelvis) side of the patella...

 

I live on the second floor so up/down at least once a day, sometimes several.  I'll try walking up backwards.

 

Both knees are about the same pain level, but one suggestion I've had will be to do seated single-leg lifts (I've always done both, and both hurt  about the same).  Seen elsewhere/elsethread, my thighs are strong, I think, and my calf-lifts on a seated, 3' extension/125# lift/cushion-on-knees are of no challenge so it's likely to all be down to my knees...

[SkipGundlach]

2 minutes ago, BobF said:

 

The biggest immediate help for me at the time, was changing the start.  If you have the flexibility to do it, try and think about pressing your chest/vest up against your front knee in the pullup.  For me, this allowed the boat to pull me up without pressing out until I was out of the water.  Much less pressure on both knees and lower back.  Still do it to this day, even though my knee issues have subsided.  Hope this helps.

LOL  I had no challenges in that regard.  My chest STILL hurts - over a week later.  I'm  pretty flexible, I think; I can easily (and comfortably) put either or both knees to my chest.  My now-a-year gym workouts (in prep for this move!) have made it so I can no longer sit on my butt with my heels to my sides, comfortably, for the first time in my life, however.  All those thigh adduction/abduction exercises, prolly...

 

Getting out and tracking (all but the stand-up part) was of no issue; ski on line to stabilize, rolling start, and I'm out.  But not up...

 

I desperately hope my (vs my son's) ski will help, and I'll be doing some PT when I get back to the gym, as well as some trainer-guided stuff to see about my patellar issues.  I don't believe it's replacement time, as it is  solely patellar-top pain...

 

Sigh...

[tjs1295]

Sounds like you need to see a physical therapist in person. Not sure even a water skiing physical therapist could help much on this forum. 

[susb8383]

I just wanted to add a couple of things. There are two things I always tell people trying to get up on two skis. The last person got up on his first try and all subsequent tries after.

1. There's a trick I never see mentioned. I first saw it on a video by a FL instruction, Lane Dawg Bowers I think was his name. At that point I was trying to learn to get up on one ski and I had no problems at all getting up on two. But I remembered it and the next time I needed to get up on two and drop a ski for whatever reason, I tried it. It made getting up on two so much easier, so now I do it every time when I need to do a two-ski start.

The magic trick is this:

When you're getting into position in the water, put your knees together so that they are touching, and your feet wide. This creates a very stable triangle shape. When you do this you don't have to think about keeping your skis parallel, etc. They just stay in the right position effortlessly. It's the same thing as trying to put on a shoe by balancing on one foot vs. leaning against a wall. When you brace against something, in this case your knees bracing against each other, it takes away you having to keep your feet into the right position consciously.

Found it:

(Incidentally, I don't agree with what he says about the meat hook. Yes for slalom but no for two skis. You want to be centered on two skis with your knees slightly bent like you're about to sit on a couch, not have your hips forward as you would on one ski).

2. The other thing I tell people is to pretend they are made of stone. "Knees together, feet wide, stone statue." When the boat starts to pull, you have to think of yourself as made of stone. That means you don't move. You don't bend at the waist, you don't push with your legs, you don't try to stand.

From what I've read above, you're overthinking it. You're thinking about getting up on plane, etc. Which probably means you're trying to compensate somehow for the boat pull.

Don't. As long as you wait in the right position with your ski tips out of the water and at about a 45 degree angle like Position 1 in the drawing from a post above, your knees touching and feet wide, and your arms extended, that's all you need to do. Then just think stone statue.

When the boat starts to pull, don't do anything different. You don't have to do anything to plane. The boat should do it all. It's like it pulls you up a ramp.

Then wait before standing up. You can count to 10, you can do "My favorite food is ____" that April Coble tells her beginner skiers, etc.

You should be able to never stand if you want and just get pulled indefinitely in your squatting position. That's how stable it should feel before you stand.

I personally like to have new skiers get pulled by a very, very slow boat to start, not even enough to pull them up, but enough to give them the feeling of being in the right position. Then stop and do it again. After a few times when they feel comfortable with that sensation, then the boat can give a progressively harder pull and they can stand after waiting.

Of course without gloves there are only so many times you can do the practice pull before getting tired, but 2 or 3 times should be fine.

Troubleshooting:
If you're just plowing water without feeling like you're cutting through the water in a wedge, it probably means you started with your legs too perpendicular to the water, like in position 2 from the drawing above. Of course if your knees were touching and your feet were wide, I think it's impossible to get into position 2.

If you get pulled over the front of the skis, it probably means you're bending at the waist at the boat pulls.

Stone statue.

It could also mean the boat is yanking you with too hard a pull at the start. The pull should start out soft which gets your body rising just because of the position of the skis. Then the pull can get progressively harder once you're starting to rise up.

But again, it's all something the boat does. The skier shouldn't do anything except stay still in exactly the same position they waited in.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by susb8383

[susb8383]

This is another one of Lane Bowers' videos that shows what I mean. Notice that he can be sitting down being pulled indefinitely as long as he is in the right position. He's got his feet wide and knees touching. That's your goal before you ever have the driver pull hard enough for you to stand.

Before about 1:10 he shows you all the mistakes people make. Then after that he shows you what you should be doing: just being relaxed squatting in what he calls a 3-point stance.

When you stand up, your  knees come apart of course, but he can then squat back down, putting his knees together again.
 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by susb8383

[lpskier]

@susb8383 Wait…, if you’re made of stone, won’t you just… sink? 

[SkipGundlach]

https://ballofspray.com/profile/9334-susb8383/, thanks for those.

 

In training my little  grandsons, they  started on tethered pairs; the next step was removing the stern tether, which provided more control.

 

As a snow  skier, I'd use the snowplow technique to help newbies get comfortable...

 

As to two-skis, my feet are so large I was afraid that I'd split the bindings on the typical pair available to me - and I came right out on the times I tried on the one (son's slalom)  I stuffed my feet into.

 

As the opportunity (a VRBO week a couple of houses away from where the foundations are being  dug) has passed, likely I'll not have another trial before a year  or so from now.  In the meantime, I'll be seeing  PTs about my knees, as my ability to stand (I got  up, but couldn't STAND up) without pain is the major issue.

 

That said, specific exercises to enhance whatever muscles are actually used in skiing would be useful.  I found info today which suggested that my behind-a-jetski was in 2010, and my real-boat pull most likely earlier than that, so I've  been inactive in skiing for a long time (and getting older, of course).  When I was actively skiing, I didn't do the first lick of organized exercise, so had no concept of what I might have had 'naturally' - though  my tailor observed that I had"prominent  buttocks"  - which I laid to many daily trips up and down stairs to refill coffee or whatever  else in my 2-story home on Lake Lanier.

 

So:  Specific exercises to  enhance my ability to ski?  I'll be going to a PT when I get back to Vero to try to sort my knee pain...