Hallpass

They can just forgive that Credit Card debt, right?  🙄

@buechsr I don't follow F1, but Ferrari mentioned financial down year for F1 due to poor results?

49 minutes ago, buechsr said:

Just for discussion sake, I can agree that inflation and global economy issues didn’t affect their buyers which is obviously represented by significantly higher revenues, despite far less (increase) in units. The obvious conclusion is that they were able to charge more per unit than the previous year.

However, that’s the (lack of) top line effect of inflation.

Given that their operating margins were up just 3%, if they were inflation proof on the supply/production side, then in theory their operating margins should’ve been up 17%, in line with their revenues.  Said another way, it could be argued that those numbers reflect a 14% increase in its expenses associated with each unit produced…inflation….it just so happens that their buyers can afford that absorption, but I don’t we can conclude inflation didnt affect their financials substantially.  

 

Read through quickly, and as I said, not a financial guy.

Actual Net Profit rose 34% exceeding the 17 percent revenue growth

As a percentage, net operating profit rose 3%  from 24.1 percent to 27.1 percent.  

I could well be missing your point.

2 minutes ago, Horton said:

@Hallpass maybe I'm just being dense. I don't disagree with much of what you said above.  I have doubts that MasterCraft could double the cost of any boat and still sell any. it is a competitive market.  My question is how does this have a bearing on the current cost of ski boats? I sort of feel like this conversation is turned into circular logic. 

Wish I could read minds.  What's new, these threads tend to stray all over the map.

There seem to be a couple of opposite view arguments and a bunch of people, including me spending too much thought on this.  Some that think the costs are outrageous, and some that think the costs, while high, are supported.  A bunch of different opinions trying to support one side or the other, sometimes with innacurate comparisons, or emotional frustrations.

1. Dan threw out that inflation has little to do with how manufacturers price luxury items.  Probably true as evidenced by Gucci, Ferrari, and others.  The disagreement, I think,  is whether our boats fall in that category.  I don't think the public financials support that our boats are in that category, even though they are expensive. 

2. The original video presents a simplistic view.  Boats are twice as big, of course they cost twice as much.  My guess is that some people look at that and say really?  I don't think fiberglass cost twice as much.  I don't think upholstery costs twice as much.  Still only has one engine.  I don't think it takes twice as long to mold a 25 foot boat as it did to mold a 20 foot boat.  I call  bullshit, the manufacturers are just greedy.

There is so much that goes into the cost of making a boat - yes, basic materials; but also bigger engines raise cost more; labor has gone up everywhere, but particulary in Tennessee and Florida where there are huge building booms; gasoline for the company vehicles, electricity, water; cost of disposing of toxic substances; local taxes; increased medical costs for employees; electronic component costs have actually gone up in the last few years (rare in that industry) and we are putting more and more complex electronics in these boats;  cost of lawyers and payouts on lawsuits have gone up; on and on and on.

I have not seen full breakdown of all the costs, and how much each has gone up.  But, again, public financial reports show that margins are about the same as they were ten years ago.  I think those that read the numbers understand that the manufacturers are not gouging us, despite the fact that we don't like the high cost of boats.

3.  There are still many that believe that the manufacturers could make a low cost boat if they wanted to.    Even if true, these are businesses, not charities.  And two of the big three are publicly traded business.  They are obligated to provide best returns to their shareholders.  

If the marketplace supported the low cost builds, or if the margins could meet or exceed what the manufacturers make on the more expensive boats, they would make them.  Obviously, the boat companies don't believe the low cost boats meet these criteria.

Again, just one guy's interpretation of this thread.

1 hour ago, Horton said:

@Hallpass okay treat me like a 7th grader and please explain what @DvarianDan Johnson is trying to say. The boat companies are not making huge margins so how is the comparison to Ferrari a valid comparison? 

I don't believe his comparison of Ferrari to ski, wake, and surfboats is accurate at the current margin rates of Malibu or Mastercraft, and that has been my point/contribution here. 

Those of us whose primary sport, hobby, competition is skiing, wakeboarding, surfing, don't think of the boats as luxury items.  They are tools necessary to participate in our sport.  But the fact is, most of the world looks at 125K ski boats, or 300K surf boats as an unnecessary luxury item. 

I believe to Dan's point , if Mastercraft decided tomorrow that its wake boats were 500K, that would put them in a class with Ferrari, Gucci, etc.   There is still an element of the population, that won't care.  They don't care about inflation.  They don't care about interest rates, they just want it.  Might be for status.  Might be because they only want the best (subjective).  Maybe just because we mere mortals cannot.  But there is an element.  High end luxury companies charge, because they can.

Is MC or Malibu in a position to do that and remain in business?  I don't think so.  

Ferrari shipped about 13K units last year world wide, and about 5K units in the U.S.  There units were up 3%, revenues up 17% and net operating margins were up 3%.  Inflation, high interest rates, global economy issues seemingly had no impact.

 MC Shipped around 3500 units with only 5% outside North America.   Unit sales were down 5.3% and revenue was down .6%.  And, that is with modest margins compared to Ferrari.  My opinion, these boats are not in that ultra-luxury, inflation proof category, even thought they are quite expensive.

I am not a CFO, accountant, or economist.  Just one guy's $.02 (or $1 if a Ferrari).

8 hours ago, DvarianDan Johnson said:

@BlofeldStudy Ferrari……… 

Ferrari is a pretty good example to support your point.  Gross profits of 50% are more in line with numbers of the luxury apparel companies you have mentioned.

Interestingly, others like McLaren and Rolls Royce have much more modest margin profiles, closer to those of Mastercraft.  

Bugatti, which is owned by Volkswagen is really interesting.  I have read that they lost $4-6M on every Veyron model sold.  They were thrilled that the Chirons would make a profit at all.  Which, to me says there is a limit to what even the ultra rich market will support.

I understand your point that inflation has little to do with how the rich spend on Luxury.  They continue to buy extravagant homes, extravagant cars, extravagant yachts, designer clothes and handbags, blah, blah, blah.  However, I just don't see that the margin profiles of Ski, wake and surf boats fit in that category.

My $.02.

3 hours ago, DvarianDan Johnson said:

Any mention of inflation in this discussion IMO is ridiculous. $100K+ boats are a high end luxury item . Period. Any inflationary impact on materials etc. is negligible . It's like saying inflation is a driver of high end fashion products like Gucci, Prada, YSL, Hermes, etc. that are all insanely expensive. Inflation is not a consideration in the pricing.    

Reported financials do not support this theory.  Gucci and Prada are at gross margins in the 75 to 80% range, with  net operating margin in the 30 range.  On the other hand, Mastercraft, for example, has not had gross margin exceeding 28% in the last 10 years, and that was in 2016, when, according to this thread, the boat's retail was about half what it is now.  Net margin for Mastercraft was about 10% last year, as someone said above.

9 hours ago, chrislandy said:

It's a difficult one, very easy to scare off after the first attempt i.e. the first fall. Mine has been over 7 times and not skied away yet (so close on at least 3 of them). He's planning a trip to a specific club for a weekend early season that has a 3ft ramp to "get it done" (and apparently I have to go over too) before going back to 4ft6 back home. 

She has flown pretty far during Super G ski races, but never really got over her fear there either.

It's up to her, I will buy all the gear.  But, to Horton's point, unless she can learn from Terry Winter, her primary coach, or one of the really well know jump coaches, it's not happening.

On 2/2/2024 at 5:38 PM, Horton said:

@Hallpass

The most awesome thing I have ever done in life is jump but I do not want Buford to jump. At very least if your daughter is going to jump it needs to be with someone who REALLY knows what they are doing like @twhisper. If you do not have access to coaches who very much know what they are doing I am against it.

Yep.  If she is going to do it, I want her to learn now with Terry, and not from some college kid when she gets there.

My Junior in high school is in her last year of Junior skiing.  She's hoping to place in Regionals, and ski the Nationals since they are close.  Looking forward to College, she is hoping to develop a half way respectable trick pass.  She's been talking about overcoming her fears of the jump, and at least learning to plop over-we shall see.

I just use metal shelving brackets that you buy down at the hardware store.  Easy to install and there is a lot of gear hanging on that wall.

@kmenardShe's a junior, so still all over the map.  Has eyes on a couple of Ivy League Schools.  Wants to be a Veterinarian, so looking at all 30 schools that have Vet programs.  She is an all State Swimmer, so has not ruled out swimming in College.  Other schools she is looking at with a Water Ski Team include UC Davis, Notre Dame, Purdue, Wisconsin.

@kmenard. Our kids went out to the "ski lake" at UT.  It is currently a mud puddle.  Apparently drained for some kind of repairs.  Not sure when it is expected to be operational.

People say they want a bare bones, low cost boat.  The actual sales don't support it.  The budget minded would rather buy a used boat with all the bells and whistles, than a new, stripped down model.

Not an exact comparison, but, the SV211 was far and away the best seller for Correct Craft (Nautique).  They stripped it down and presented as a price point boat, and the sales went to nearly nothing.

So, my daughter was invited to tag along with two friends to recruiting weekend for the Water Ski Team at Texas A&M.  I have no idea if she will ski at A&M or any other college.  But, it was a really unique way to visit potential college.  Other schools might not offer such an extensive effort, but I would think most teams would offer some type of meetup to your potential skier.  Definitely adds a personal touch to the college visit. 

In this case, in addition to skiing a few sets with the team, the kids spent a couple of nights on campus with a designated team member; toured the campus with real students (not trained tour guides saying all the right things); attended the midnight rally; attended the football game; and generally got a better feel for the college experience at A&M. 

Not your typical college tour.  And really valuable for our daughter.  

Criminal Court conviction rate in Canada is 62%.  Felony criminal conviction rate in the U.S. 68%.

Whether for or against SS, the 38% number is not surprising.

@Horton. If I recall, Buford’s “chop” ski was a 59” sent from the factory that way, right?  You were not out there with a skill saw, cutting off the tail, Patching the cut, slotting the fin, etc. ?

@JimP. Fair enough. If you have the time, money, and skill, and believe that is best solution for your child, then that’s the perfect solution. Hope she kills it. 

@JimP.  I'm sure someone will respond that this works great and tell you exactly how to do it. If it works, it works.

But, I'm just not sure why you would do it when it is really cheap to buy a ski.  You can currently buy a Radar TRA in 63 or 65 on wakehouse.com for $199.  Williams Ski and Sport has them for $219.  

Even if your child used the ski for two or three years (mine used her TRA three if I recall), and even if she beats up the aki (girls don't typically beat up their gear), you will still be able to sell the TRA for over $100.

While I have no idea what is your financial status.  However, I'm guessing that if you are riding Goode skis, and participating in this sport, you are probably doing ok.  Given that, I would not think it is worth your time to cut the ski, buy the materials to patch the carbon fiber on the tail, your time to repari the the tail, your time to properly place the bindings, tail, etc.  I  would think your time and materials are  worth WAY more than the $100 or so you might lose if you just buy a TRA.

My $.02.  Maybe I am wrong.

Weather delays suck.  Hope the skiers had an extra night to rest and collect their thoughts, and kill it today.

@SCoke. Just know what I saw.  I was texting with one of the B5 parents and she was seeing the same thing as I was seeing.

She actually sent me of photo of results from the facilty well before the live scoring was updated.

B5 is now complete on live scoring.

Live scoring has been off all day.  I was following B5 and it has shown the same score for hours.  Missing several skiers.

Cheapest - Camp in a tent.  Make some friends.  Give them gas money and clean their boat.

FWIW, my kid was always on the taller side (finally quit growing at 5'11"), but she had no problem with a TRA at speeds down

to 17 and 19 mph.  Maybe she was just strong.  I don't know.  I feel like the lighter ropes were helpful.

One of the old BOS threads