ZO Gates vs. SG or PP

[Roger]

We had 14 gates pulled at our 3rd Record at Okeeheelee this weekend, more than any tournament I've ever officiated at. All 14 were ZO.

My theory: PP and SG come into the gates about .5mph hot. ZO comes in at actual speed. I know when I pulled out for the gates in the first round, I was surprised how slow the glide seemed. I almost thought they put in 52k instead of 55k. I think this slight difference in speed (slower) is causing peoples timing to be ever so slightly off. The skiers missing the gates was across the board from g1 to MM and even OM.

Thoughts?

 

[Horton]

If you are right, that is HUGE!

See my later post. Pretty sure that this is wrong.

[jrs]

I was one of the unfortunate that had my gates pulled after a nice 38.  Roger is correct about the boat speed being down.  My Stargazer and my old PP start out at about 34.8mph and then apply a bit more with the gate up feature.  The gate up at 38 off is being applied about at the same point that I turn in.  Zero-Off on the other hand is running about 34.3 and in the "A" setting starts giving a larger amount of gas a few feet before the gates.  The slower speed combined with the extra gas is enough to move me over onto the gate ball.  Don't get me wrong, I like the feel of Zero-Off and I'm glad we have it.  I watched the video of my gate one frame at a time, last year the gate would have counted but the new rules had me right of center and a zero.  Maybe that's where the Zero-Off name comes from!

[Old MS Accout]

At the end of the season, ZO will increase your ball count. IMO

[jrs]

I'm sure of it.  Just want to point out that you need to be aware of your gates.

[Horton]

If we practice behind one and compete behind another  . . . . I am totally against that.

[skibug]

Looks like everyone will have to go out and buy a TWB boat, 2009 or later.  PP gave up all of the OEM rights to ZO.  It doesn't look like SG will be at any tournaments since all tournament boats are promo boats provided by the OEM's.  This is what I understand....does anyone know any different??

 

[Old MS Accout]

I have a 2008 with ZO FS that will be available in Sep.

[lkb]

Roger, did you'll have a nautique and a mastercraft pulling the tournament? If so, did you alternate rounds with the boats? I'm just wondering how the skiers reacted if there was a round where ZO was the only option.

thanks

[Roger]

Yes, we had a Nautique for the 1st and 3rd round with ZO only and a Mastercraft for round 2 with a choice of ZO or SG. I think for many it was their first time with ZO. I know as boat judge in the Mastercraft for one of the groups, only two skiers chose ZO. From the shore or in the main tower it was quite apparent when someone chose ZO in the Mastercraft since the boat was quite loud and the difference in how the throttle is used between ZO and SG is no small thing...

I think as skiers get more pulls with ZO, they will adapt, but right now it's a bit of a different feel than PP or SG.

Roger

 

[lkb]

Is there a new rule for gates at class C tournaments?

[Roger]

Yes, the gate judging has been made uniform for all classes. Look at page 83 of the new rules book:

 2008 AWSA Rules

 

Roger

[Horton]

After spending the weekend in Orlando and talking with skiers in the know, I think what happened at Okeeheelee was ALL about the gate rule and not about the ZO. Besides that I skied behind both everyday and am no longer worried about the difference.

[Roger]

John's miss (he posted above) falls into that category, however most of the misses would have been misses with the old rules as well. You can't slow the entry speed down .5 mph after more then 2 decades of skiing the faster entry and not expect some effect...

[ForrestGump]

We hosted a tournament at our lake yesterday.  The Malibu had SG only, the Nautique had ZO only, and the Mastercraft had both.  They ran the MC with SG unless the skier requested ZO. At times, the Malibu would take off coming into the pregates. We'd have 32mph skiers coming through the gates closer to 34 and 34mph skiers smoking through at 36 or so. Then it'd settle just as it came through the gates.  Had a few rerides over that.  Not every skier, but out of 26 skiers it happened at least 4 times.

 Here's my thoughts based on what I felt between the two systems. I normally ski behind an 05 196 and an 05 Responce LX with SG. Yesterday, the 08 malibu just didn't feel right. Don't know what it was, but it just didn't feel right.  The mastercraft on the other hand, felt a lot better, but I could never get free of the boat. It always felt like the boat was running away and advancing too far down course from me as I apexed the turn. With the Nautique and ZO, I COMPLETELY blew the gates on my opener. I turned in where I normally would and had to completely let up as I approached the first wake other wise I was going to be about 3 feet wide of the right hand gate ball. I adjusted on subsequent passes, though. It was definitely an interesting comparison having all three new boats side by side in subsequent rounds. The boats themselves ski so much different now compared to last year, IMO. I skied best behind the MC yesterday. But damn that wake felt hard. hahaha 

 My friend Mike has been struggling all spring with 38. He's been getting 2 pretty consistently.  Yesterday, in the first round he runs 2 at 38 behind the Malibu with SG, 5.5 at 38 behind the Nautique with ZO(he went out at B and then switched to A for the 38 pass), and 2 at 38 behind the MC with SG.

 I'm still undecided on this issue.  Mainly because we've been using SG very successfully on the 05s. On those boats it feels awesome. But SG on these DBW boats just didn't feel right.

 

shane

[acmx]

All these differences in pulls is rediculous. It 's hard enough to ski in tournaments without all this . They {AWSA} have essentialy made every non drive by wire boat obsolete by allowing this half baked technology to be approved for use. Not looking forward to tournaments this year for sure!

[ktm300]

acmx.  agreed.  any approved speed control should be required to work on non dbw boats.  how does it meet the bs stated goal of growing the sport to require people to buy dbw boats.  it ain't growing the sport.  growing some jackasses wallet maybe.  to those suggesting that the pull of zo is the same as stargazer, you must be skiing behind mapple's latest for the chosen few version.  the p version in the boat that i ski behind sucks for 55k.  also, i ski at two sites one of which ain't getting a dbw boat. what, now i have to learn to ski two completely different gates and tempos ?  for those skiing behind non dbw boats next year, i say skip the tournaments and don't renew your awsa membership.  apparently, a.m. could sell anchovy cookies and everyone would stand around talking about  how great they are with a cold glass of milk.

[ScarletArrow]

I drove for an INT tournament yesterday w/ ZO.

The lake had a turn island down course...it was very close to the pre-gates for the return trip so it made for a very short set up.

For a couple of passes...after getting the skier up I would immediately go full throttle w/ the idea of getting the boat up to speed as quickly as possible (esp. 36mph), preferably w/ as much distance as possible before the pre-gates.

Since the turn was very tight and a short set-up, the boat would come screaming out of the island turn...over shoot the speed...and then make a pretty drastic reduction in speed AFTER the pre-gates that caused a couple of skiers to have trouble w/ their gates.

We found that on this end of the course, it was better not to immediately go full throttle (the preferred position as instructed by ZO) until after making the turn around the island.

The front end of the course had plenty of set up time and had no issues w/ gate speed.

My first "real" experience w/ ZO and tourney driving FWIW.

Anthony

[Chuck_Dickey]

I recently upgraded to SG on my 2003 MC-PS-197 and am having a difficult time on a short setup lake we ski about half the time. I think you have to be very careful not to overspeed into the pregate as Anthony stated about the ZO problem.

You'd think with all this new technology it would be easier. Anyone with gate up, 1 ball and 3 ball settings which are working on my model year MC, please post them.  Got a greatly details post from a Malibu owner but have not had a chance to test them.  His are very different than stock setting!

[Old MS Accout]

I skied 7 sets behind a Malibu with SG and a MC with both systems. I ran pretty well behind the Malibu on friday at a practice and thought the boat felt softer then ZO on my boat but I was also comming from ice water and skiing in 85f water.

We started off with the MC and I was about 10 off the dock, so I had some time to see waht was happening to others. With SG, the MC sounded like there was not alot of throttle gasing. When the skier would go with ZO, you could here it all the way down the lake and the MC is a very loud boat. It was freaking out alot of skiiers including me. I decided to go with SG because of that. It felt like SG would get progressivily harder as I went towards the end of the course. I chose it again on the 3rd round due to the MC sound freaking me out.

I did not run well behind it.

On sunday, I put the MC on ZO and was very mad that I did not put it on for the first 2 sets. It was great. It was a steady pull right down the course. Not to soft or hard, just a constant 34.2. I was double pumping at every ball behind SG and did not double pump once behind the ZO. It helped me carry my speed so well. Do not let that loud boat freak you out when you here the throttle kick in on ZO.

I did not feel the down course hard pull behind the Malibu and had no problem with out of the ball double pumping. I think the boat was dialed in real well and it may like that Malibu engine better. It felt steady, but a bit soft.

The Malibu also had a V drive rudder on it and it was the best driving Malibu I have driven. Its not up to the 196, but a big differance from the other 08 Malibus that I have driven.         

[Director Darwin]

Some interesting notes from this past weekend:

1.  The MC is MUCH better w/ ZO than Stargazer.  As MS stated, don't let the sound freak you out.  The pull is awesome.

2.  The SG in the Malibu was set up perfect for the 180-200lb shortline skiers.  The lighter skiers got smoked.  I think it would be interesting if the mid-course and 5 ball times were noted in addition to the end course.  I pulled a lot of 7.07 mids / 9.77 5 ball and 16.95's this weekend.  As the skiers weight went up, the times began to balance.  But the kids / ladies got screwed.  It will all be a moot point in the near future, but Star Gazer is not the answer.  In fact, it is the problem in most cases.  

[ScarletArrow]

"but Star Gazer is not the answer.  In fact, it is the problem in most cases."

Ouch!

[lkb]

In the MC with ZO are the 1,2,3, and 4 ball times always a little on the slow side?

[ForrestGump]

jdarwin- Interesting. Now that I think about it, you're right. It was all light weight skiers where the malibue/SG would take off in our tournament. I did see the MC do it one time to a lighter weight skier when the SG was being used.

 The pull we're getting behind the nonDBW boats with SG is awesome and I can't complain. But there's definitely some work that needs to be done on the DBW(even ZO) application from what I saw last weekend. I lost over 1 full pass this week when we went from the non dbw boats in practice to the dbw boats in the tournament. And that was at our own lake where I've consistently performed within a couple of buoys of my pb this year. My best score in this tournament was 8 less. WTF?!?! Maybe I just had a bad day.

[Director Darwin]

The MC was dead on when using ZO (if you believe in virtual timing).  SG was always hot on the lighter skiers but right on for the 180-210lb skiers.

Horton asked sometime back what would be the biggest news in 2008.  I predicted it would be speed control.  I'm being proven correct.  We had some of the best skiers in the country at Ski Ranch this weekend - including some notable pros - Billy Susi, Thomas Moore, Ian Trapp, etc.  Out of approx. 200 pulls over two days,  39-off was run TWICE!  That's absurd.  39 is typically the norm at that tournament - not the exception.  It can be directly related to the issues surrounding speed control.   I'm about 3-4 buoys off my average from last year. Several skiers commented that they were one full pass off their scores from last year.   The feel of ZO is much different than PP and will take some change in skiing style for some to conform.  StarGazer DOES NOT give consistent pulls to ALL skiers.  My mid course times were 7:16 to 7:18.  My daughter's were 7:07 to 7:09.  But, or course, the end times were always 16.95 - something doesn't compute.  She commented that her 28 off pass felt hot.  Possibly why she only ran it once all weekend.  She scored 4 @ 28 off twice - makes sense considering she was getting hot times thru 2/3rds of the course.

We have gone one step forward - two steps back as it relates to speed control.  I say we should "junk" all of this and go back to PP 6.5ng.  We were all accustomed to the pull and no one had any complaints.  

jhd 

[ktm300]

I ski behind a  08 MC 197 promo with both systems.  ZO version P and Stargazer.  Skied ZO for a solid month.  Switched to Stargazer and within 3 sets picked up a solid 4 buoys with more to come.  Just got P101 and my training partner said it feels diff./  better.  I could immediately hear and feel the boat even out with the gassing we had with version P.   With the version P we had the gas was from the center line to past the second wake.  It sucked.  I believe that eventually they are going to get ZO dialed in for 55.  However, we ain't all skiing behind the same versions. 

It is not my place to speak for others on a message board but, I know a number of really good skiers who have been thrown for a loop with ZO.  If yours works, great.  If yours does not, don't drink the AM KoolAid.  Get it reflashed.

[ktm300]

Don't whine, go out and buy a DBW boat.  Everybody having to spend 45k to practice behind what they get in tournaments is growing the sport man.  You know grass roots and all.  Junior development.  Take those $1200 PP systems and ...  If a kid loses a pass and loses interest, so what.  At least some folks we all love and admire are making a buck off of it.  Good will is a waste of time.  Who needs it.  PP bent over backwards with good customer service for a decade.  Bunch of losers. 

We need a new AWSA run by friends of skiers.  An organization that has the good sense to recognize that no speed control should be approved for tournament use that will not work in the majority of boats that are out there pulling skiers.  AWSA had an opportunity to show us that all this grow the sport bs was its true goal.  The real goal is to line some pockets.  I really, really think it stinks. 

[Old MS Accout]

I think P101 is just P with upgraded Jump mode. It is the same for slalom. Someone let me know If I am wrong so I can get a new one.  

[ForrestGump]

I completely agree KTM. The AWSA should have stipulated to both speed control manufacturers that for them to get sanction to pull a tournament using the GPS, that they had to do both DBW and non DBW, IMO. If ZO had done a non DBW, I would have both SG and ZO on my 05 SN196 and could practice with either one. I know lots of people that would buy both. I don't know a lot of people that are willing to go spend $40K +, though.  Of the seven boats we use at our lake, none are DBW, and none will be replaced by newer boats anytime soon.  Oh well. It is what it is.

[Roger]

MS,

We have a driver here at Okeeheelee who really stays on top of this stuff. They arrived at the lake with P101 this weekend. When I asked what the difference was, here is what I was told: "the new version is to solve the surge problem happening with O and P where the jump program was kicking in off 1 ball and giving very fast splits." This was happening occasionally with O and P, not every pass. I know one of the boats with ZO used in last weekends Miami tournament exhibited this problem.

I'd get P101 if I had ZO. Alas, I have a 2002 Nautique and have no wish to get a new boat at this time...

 

[lkb]

Roger, just making sure I understand.  Are you saying that the jump program was doing something to affect the motor while running in slalom mode?

thanks

[skibug]

lkb and Roger,

I can confirm from a very good source (also a top pro event driver working with ZO) that ZO had bleed over from the "jump mode" code in to the "slalom mode" code.  Not sure how this would have happened but they must be using some of the same or shared  algorythms for both modes.

[skibug]

SG my on my 2003 Response LX is still not as dialed in as the PP mode.  I am not sure on how to change what I am feeling.  I adjusted the tables to get the right splits and end time; but, it just doesn't seem to let me free of the boat.  In the pre-turn, it just keeps running away.  Does anyone get this same sensation and is there an adjustment I am missing?  I am starting to thing like some of the others and say let's just go back to PP 

[ForrestGump]

Skibug, I'll try and get the settings my buddy is using on his Response. It skis very well. I know that feeling you're talking about. I felt like that behind the Mastercraft promo boat this weekend. 

[lkb]

Skibug, was this happening even if the boat was showing to have good times?

[Chuck_Dickey]

JDarwin,

Were your comments on SG in a DBW boat or a servo? For your daughter, have you adjusted the "gate up 1 & 3 ball" settings in the "L" mode or was she skiing in the "N" mode?

I have a club tournament to pull this weekend and only Friday to try to dial it in.  I have an '03 PS-197 which is servo.  The lake is a short setup and I'm thinking of just running it in PP Classic.

Comments and suggestions welcome from any and all.

 Chuck

[skibug]

lkb,

 yes, even with accurate (good) times.  It is just a little less forgiving in the preturn.  My boat has a very soft but consistant pull, my baseline for 34 mph is 3290 rpm.  So, on PP mode I use a Kx +, which picks me up a little faster off the ball.  I played with the Kx settings on the SG; but, it didn't seem to make it any better.  (-) was worse & (+) was worse.  The normal Kx felt the best on SG.

 

2gofaster,

Thanks for the efforts, I would be interested to compare.  My current #'s are pregate = .65, 1 ball = 26, 3 ball = 19.  These numbers get actuals 90 % of the time, sometimes the splits come up just a touch hot, like 7.11 or 7.12 where I would prefer some 7.15 or 7.16.

[Director Darwin]

Chuck - this was an ELR tournament this past weekend.  This was not my boat- 2008 LXI promo boat - but I drove it two rounds.  I did not drive for my daughter (conflict rule) but was told by the driver of the issues.  He pulled her in "L" mode but did not have the opportunity to adjust the pregate, 1 ball and 3 ball settings.  Besides, if he had dialed the boat in for her, it would have been WAY slow for the 180-200 lb shortline skiers - of which there were many.

Therefore, your non=DBW boat may not experience the same issues.  But if I had the option, I would pull your event w? PP Classic.  Since your boat is a 1993 model, I assume the tournament is a "F" class or similar so it really doesn't matter which system you use and PP Classic is much friendlier to ALL skiers.

[ktm300]

skibug, I know that what you are saying is true because I can feel the difference when driving slalom.  After skiing ZO for a month on version P, I switched to StarGazer.  My ski partner stuck with ZO.  When we got P101 it drove different and felt different to the skier.  Better.  No question about it.  This is true despite the fact that Andy Mapple tells people that it only changed the jump program.  Is it possible that he just doesn't know?  Not very.  If he doesn't, then we should quit listening to him.  I personally know of two boats in which P was upgraded to P101 and it changed the slalom pull.

I can only speak for myself but, this is not right.  I smell the bs.  It seems, to me, to be downright dishonest.  Now if ZO shot straight with us about any and all changes, we could view it in a positive light.  Maybe even think that they were working hard to make it better for us.  Kinda like PP did for a decade.

 

[Roger]

LKB,

As skibug said, yes... the slalom program was sometimes running the final cut jump program when the skier was coming off one ball. P101 is supposed to eliminate that.

I'm sure glad all this was fully tested and we all got to play with ZO in our own boats before it was allowed in tournaments /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-frown.gif

[Old MS Accout]

I just called ZO. P101 on the way.

[lkb]

I got P101 installed in my Nautique today. Didn't ski but I did drive one 55kph set. Seemed the same to me. The little bit slow 1,2,3,4,and 5 ball was definitely the same. I didn't tell the skier about the update and he didn't make any comments about different feel. 

With rev O I never felt anything funny coming off one ball and I never saw evidence of it if the virtual times are to be trusted.

Zero Off if you're listening, your customer relations totally suck. Why the secrecy? All I heard during the MAsters webcast was how great Zero Off is. If you really gave a damn, you'd keep your customers in the loop.

[Chuck_Dickey]

JDarwin,

My boat is a 2003 PS-197  and the tournament is just a club "Fun day" tourny.  I thought the "L" settings for 34 and 36 are separate from each other and separate from the two "N" settings.  That's where I'm trying to dial things in.  We have 35 members and a wide variety of speeds, weights and line lengths.  This is really where I thought the SG upgrade would shine, not having to account for shier weight and wind. Now we have crew weight, L & N modes and Gate up, 1 ball & 3 balls adjustments to deal with.

I'll have some time to mess with it Friday before the fun begins and if I can't get it dialed, PP classic here we come

[Kelvin]

Been running the mechanical/servo version of SG for a month now on a 2003 Malibu Response LXI.  For 34mph N mode, it is dialed in for 200 lb skiers -within 1 to 2 hundreths at every ball.  Today I pulled a 160lb skier at our lake and the 3 ball times were smoking him - in the 7.07 range.  At 160 lbs, he is supposed to be in the N mode, not the L mode.  Can a 200lb skier and a 160lb skier use the same settings?  That is what I bought into, but it is not what we are getting!!!   Any thoughts or solutions would be appreciated. 

[ForrestGump]

Kelvin, John's Malibu is dialed in pretty tight and he is pulling he and I at 180 lbs and Mike A at 160 within .01 to .02 and we're all using N. Mike C hasn't skied enough at 200lbs to be a good test subject. I wonder where the break point is.  You've got a 40lb delta and have issues and we're running a 20 lb delta and don't behind basically the same boat. 

 FWIW, I skied 1 tournament set on the same lake with SG/servo yesterday as we did on Saturday and set a new pb. How can the DBW boats feel so different?