Power of V

[Chuck_Dickey]

I saw this on a ski at the Adobe tournament last weekend and am curious if any one is using or has any experience with it. It is used in conjunction with your existing fin and wing so mounting holes are added to your fin to accommodate it.

 http://www.pbtcenter.com/PBTC/Shopping.html

[Horton]

I have 2 and simply have not had the chance to try them.

[CsSkis]

Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I think that it would be a waste of $40.  (Spoken by an engineer with 35 years of experience in aerodynamics.)

Your fin provides longitudinal (directional) stability, as well as acts as a lifting device ("your ski as a lever") as soon you put the ski on edge.  The wing is set at approx 8 - 9 degrees to be nearly parallel with the water surface (assuming that you are riding your ski such that the tail is pitched down at approximately 8 - 9 degrees) when you are traveling straight ahead or cross-course.  When you stand up/straighten your legs in the "pre-turn" you are flattening out the ski and the wing is now acting as a drag device.  By adding this additional wing you may add some stability, but by having it parallel to the tail of the ski it will only add lift and drag during the aforementioned straight ahead and cross course segments.

Don't forget, Horton doesn't believe in wings for 34mph skiers.  And, I would agree that certain skis don't need any additional drag to slow down sufficiently before they turn.  This added wing just adds another tuning complication without providing any tangible benefit.

There is another idea being "kicked around" at O'Brien/Elite to replace wings with something a little more efficient.  But, I assure you, it looks nothing like what is shown at the link you provided.

[Horton]

I have NO IDEA how it works but everyone I have seen try the V has been impressed

[scoke]

 

Everytime I have been to Chets, he's got something new on the back of his ski. He is constantly testing things, looking for any edge or breakthrough.

I have seen:

• big cuts into fin
• doubly bent wing
• arced fin
• half bent wing
• fin looking like pacman
• half a wing

 

it sure seems like the next step in the "future" of our equipment is going to a breakthrough in the fin or the wings. Something radical and a new way of thinking is going to be what it takes.

 Think back to the Dick Pope Jr's etc. We have changed every single part of the original design but are still using an "old" design of the fin/wing.

 

[h2odawg79]

Horton,

in all your travels and trials, has anyone ever worked with a wing that was "A symmetrical"? (i.e. one that might utilize the differences between putting a wing upside down or right side up.) That would lend to more breaking and deceleration on your on-side, but give better stability through the wakes and in the turns on your off-side? 

I have some idea's and someday... 

[eleeski]

I hate it when other people come up with ideas I should have thought of. The weedwhacker blender - such a great idea and I really needed one in the old days...

Dihedral in an airplane wing stabilizes the plane. Anhedral reduces the stability. The fin wing is a very small wing with subtle effects. Anhedral on the fin wing might make the ski a bit more responsive. It is a great idea. I'm a sucker and will have to try one!

Sixam, I work really hard at softening my knees and not staying flat for the edge switch and preturn. And dealing with the speed from overpulling is my biggest problem. Anything that helps me slow down at the buoy without dragging too much across the wake helps me. The lever arm to the back of the ski makes small things have a noticeable effect.

H2Odawg, I have skied mismatched wings (good threads on the small wing but I like a big wing so I mixed them). Too subtle a difference for my gross style to notice,

Eric

[DW]

There are a couple of items to ponder on the V wing.  First, consider the actual ski surface angle relative to the water surface and travel direction and one can see that the effect will present the lower wing (relative to water surface) to be closer to perpendicular to the travel direction, that could certainly have some efficiency and tracking effects.  Also, since water is not compressible, it will certainly offer some changes in flow path particularly at the tips compared to a perpendicular wing at an angle.  I will add that drag is related to angle and size, so taking out angle will certainly reduce drag, along with the much thinner attachment material.

[eleeski]

I tried the ventral wing. It made everything feel fast. Too fast for my deficient skills. Way less drag on the ski but it helped the ski turn really well. If you normally ski without a wing, you will probably love this wing. I found the biggest wing I could find and put that on the ski (my old wing was ruined on

removal) and skied great.

Eric

[CsSkis]

 OK, I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but I can't stand it anymore!  It's just too intriguing!!

 eleeski -

Two questions:

(A) When you tried the ventral wing, were you also running a "standard" wing at the same time?

(B) Do you think that the ventral was creating lift at the tail, which put more tip in the water, and "helped the ski turn really well"?

© I'll wait for your answer to (B), before I move on to ©

 

As an aside, when I was commenting on "flattening the ski" in an earlier posting, I was referring to pitch in the longitudinal (lengthwise) axis of the ski.  I recognize that this can occur by either an upward/forward movement or by increasing the bend in the knees without changing the position of the upper torso.  Thanks for your comments. 

That's why I enjoy participating in this forum - there are many people with varied experience and ideas to share.

 

[eleeski]

I replaced my normal but slightly big wing with the ventral. So I was using only the ventral (interesting thought - dual wings). The ventral had similar effects as other wings except with much less drag. The ventral is on the small side in area. More critically, it has a very thin profile. This gives the benefits of the wing without adding much drag. Horton and other wingless skiers might love this wing. I think I like the drag and skied better with the biggest wing I could find. Eric

[eleeski]

I believe that all wings add some lift to the tail. The ventral did keep the tip down well. The transition from the pull with it's extra speed to the tight turns was too technical for me. The main difference was in how much speed the ski carried. Maybe I should try a set with no wing?

Eric

[Steven]

Ok, Chuck says that you use this in conjunction with your regular fin. How does this work? Wouldn't it create alot of turbulence and cause the tail to blow out? They sure don't give any explanation of how it works????????????

[Chuck_Dickey]

I saw the two wings on the fin of a D3 ZST. I was intrigued and thought I'd give it a try. When I received it from Chet, I discovered that on my A-1 with stock settings that there is not room to mount both wings. I guess the D-3 is much deeper fin settings. So Chet suggested running just the Ventral and use his mounting location.

I only have two sets on it and can really feel the difference. The ski is much faster cross course and maintains speed in the turns. Like Eric mentioned, it may be too much speed for my current skill set but I 'm going to stick with it for a while. It did not reduce my buoy count and feels like it will improve my count as I get more use to it.

Anyone skiing this winter may want to take the oppertunity to test it out.

 

[Steven]

Chuck, are you noticing that the tip stays down better like Eric mentioned? Intriguing design for sure! As for the feeling of additional cross course speed, could that be due to water temp?  

[Chuck_Dickey]

Yes. I think that's where the extra speed comes from. I have tried my ski with out a wing and it feels faster but didn't seem to finish the turn as well as with the HO wing at 8.5 degree. The Ventral feels fast and finishes the turn well and with less speed loss. Our water is getting colder but I skied one day with the normal wing set at 8.5 degree and the next day with the Ventral set at zero degrees.

Still, with only two sets, so I'll have to see if it continues improve.

 

 

[Steven]

Very Interesting!!! It'd be fun to try! I think we're about to see a bunch of new exciting tech changes i.e. the Connelly V and all of the new shapes that have come out recently. Cool stuff!

[Chuck_Dickey]

Horton said he had a couple V's laying around he has not tried, maybe you can pick one up at a discount. I noticed Chet's website says he is on backorder.

[Steven]

Not a bad idea! I gotta get back to skiing again soon. I haven't been on the water but once since fathers day. Still nursing my back. WAAAAA!!!