My Impressions of the Ventral Wing

[Alberto Soares]

I could not resist giving it a try today. I took a small wing from a Slot Fin and put it in the front of my Fischer fin, did not measure anything, just put it where I though it looked good. I first noticed a lot of drag making the tip lower, so I decided to reduce my normal wing from 8 to 7.5 degrees. It felt better but I still had to spend more energy to ride my Fischer. I liked the way it skied, out of the turns the ski is more stable and I did not miss any 35´s. In the second set I was more confidente and even got a complete 38, something VERY rare lately. Will keep it on my fin for a while and see what happens.

[Ed_Obermeier]

GregB wrote "Guys, for those of you going from a traditional wing to a vw only, please try this. Since you will have significantly less drag, narrow your gate and ease into the course with as little load as possible but stay connected, on edge, past the second spray, I think you will be shocked how wide and slow you will be at the ball and how easy it will be to drop into good angle. Easy transition into the couse doesn't mean no angle, it just means don't roll your shoulders away or lean hard against the boat...just ride the edge/angle out across the bouy line. When OB was describing his experience with easier and easier 35's, I am pretty sure this is what he was experiencing. It is counterintuitive, but try it I think you will like it a lot."

 

Question to GregB and probably OB as well - My intention is to set mine up like OB's, just keep my normal wing & fin settings and add the small VW in front. So I'm guessing the suggestion above applies to that setup as well (you stated "Guys, for those of you going from a traditional wing to a vw only...")? I won't be going to a VW ONLY, I'll be adding one to my normal fin setup. Just asking for the sake of clarification.

 

IMO it seems that adding a small VW to your normal setup would be the first thing to try for the "average" skier new to this. Opinions?

 

[jwr]

Ken,

 

The board will go down, because there is nothing to stop it from going down. The wing wants to go down also, but it isn't large enough to create enough force to bring the ski tail down. I believe, due to the size of the wing, compared to the lenght of your ski. A wing is about 1 inch or so long, while skis are around 67 inches long. The length of the ski, gives it leverage on the wing, and it is too strong to allow the small wing to pull it down. Now, if you put a large enough wing on the fin it would bring the tail down. I don't believe you could actually ski on it though. When you were holding the board behind the boat, it wanted to pull you off the platform. So you can see that it is creating drag. The drag on the ski plus the pull on your body from the boat forces the nose of the ski down. Just my thoughts.

[Horton]

I will ride the Mini Saturday

[eleeski]

Ken, Schnitz and JWR are adressing an interesting phenomon. A wing angled down will cause some downward pressure on the tail - the physics allows no debate on that. In a similar manner, a wing angled up will cause lift on the tail - but I've tried that and it feels weird. So lift or down pressure on the tail from a wing is not relevant to skiing feel.

Drag on the tail will cause the tip of the ski to drop due to the dynamics of where your bindings are placed vs where the drag is generated. This may be the major effect we feel when evaluating wings. Of course the extra drag helps my deficient style slow down at the buoy - which may be the biggest benefit to me.

However, when I put too much angle on my wing, the ski gets unstable. That angle seems to be where the flow disruption gets so severe that cavitation occurs. I don't know wether it is too much drag from the cavitation, less drag from the cavitation or cavitation induced unstability on the fin. I personally like big wings set at fairly high angles so I will find the cavitation point and back off a couple degrees from there.

My skis and many factory skis have a little "ramp" molded in to the very end of the tail. This adds some tip pressure and seems to help the performance of the ski. At the risk of getting banned, you could experiment with your ski by adding a little kicker on the tail of your ski with some Bondo or Superfil to see if it helps you.

However, my skis have narrow cut down tails. This should raise the tip. But my experience is that the narrow tail makes it easier to get my weight on the front and get the ski to work better. I'd certainly get banned if I reccommended that you cut down the tail of your factory ski.

Tip pressure generated by the ski is a very small effect. Stability and balance are major effects. Anything that improves those effects (like a Ventral or two?) will improve your buoy count!

Eric

[GreggyC]

OB...happy to hear you are enjoying your new setup. Hope to see you at the lake someday soon.

 

Ed, I went from no wing to a large vw down. Did not notice any increase in drag but the ski was more responsive, stable and it was easier for me to stay balanced. When I added the mini it just got better. I did not try the mini with a standard wing, early on I tried a large vw forward with a traditonal wing, but didn't love it. If you are skiing well and are simply looking for more stability and traction, the mini forward may do the trick, per OB. You will notice more drag, which you may like/want at shorter lines in addition to the stability & traction...not a bad thing. Some folks that I know with that setup dialed back on their wing angle to get what they want.

 

Final thoughts on a vw, it is simply a tool to help create stability and traction. There are numerous combinations that have been tried and many more that have not been tried yet. What works for me probably won't work for others, same is true for virtually all skiers, there is no silver bullet. All skis and skiers are different. Our skiing mechanics are different and we all have different issues we are trying to address to get better. If the vw helps really good skiers get better, which there is a lot of testimony to that affect, and a number of mid-tier to decent skiers get better, than that is proof unto itself. We are skiing on graphite highly sophisticated skis and the wings of old are relics from the 80's. The vw was simply an attempt to try something different that might be better, for many it has been a great tool that has helped them out. It won't cure cancer or fix bad technique.

 

Adios amigos...see you at the lake.

[Steven_Haines]

GregB, Thanks for sharing all of this info about the vw! Pretty cool product.

[RichardDoane]

[Horton]

Errr Zap! Minor detail. The V wing is not 90 degrees. They generally angle down at 45 degrees (ish)

[RichardDoane]

 

I skied today (April 17) second set on my Silver Strada with the fin set up shown above. I left my ventral wing "flat" in that I didn't bend the ears down at all, so they're 90' from the fin. We had a PP issue on the opener, so I ran -28 twice. I could feel the slight bit of additional drag on the -28 opener, but both the 32 and 35 felt terrific, and then I ran -38 ! Didn't even try at 39, wanted to end positive so it was a 35 back to the dock. Maybe it was a function of "honeymoon syndrome" but I was pleased, to say the least. Looking forward to seeing how it goes next weekend behind ZO on the new MC. Will keep you posted. BTW, that Radar wing was $5. @ Wiley's, and it took longer to set up and put the tools away after than it did to fabricate. I wish I could sell them for $50 - $70.

[Horton]

I hate to think of all the crazy wing stuff we will see by end of year.

[eleeski]

One interesting facet of the ventral wing I bought was the thin profile of the material. This may account for the low drag of the ventral. Other wings (possibly like Richard's Radar wing and certainly my Goode wing) are thicker and may generate more drag. I tried some really old thick wings and they did not feel good. Perhaps Chet's success was related to the thin profile of the wings he engineered.

My Ventral is not a 45 degree wing. It is canted just a bit. I'm sure Richard can bash his wing in a vise with a hammer to put a bit of down angle to the wing. Hammers and grinders, my kind of engineering!

Eric

[Boody]

I ordered a ventral wing a week ago and should be here soon. I am anxious to see how it works. I'm gonna run the small vw towards the front and keep the regular wing, may put it back to 8, its at 9 now. I will let you know how she works.

 

Doane, nice skiing! Is it me or is everyone on here kicking ass this year, including Horton and his 6 back to back 35s, dammit!

[Alberto Soares]

Skied again yesteday with my "mini wing" in the front of my fin. Unhapply my back and legs could not stand the extra drag, so I took it out and set my "normal fin" back to the usual 8 degrees I am used to. I wish I was stronger and could get the extra pressure because my ski really felt more stable. Anyways I will buy an original Chet's VW from Goode and try the real one.

[jdarwin]

FWIW, I moved my bindings back 1/4" and the ski came alive. I have not had the time to read thru all the posts but from what I gather, the VW does provide some lift of the tail and drops the tip (alters the attitude of the entire ski). So, moving the bindings back kept the ski from biting if I happen to be too far forward and yet, the tail "felt" the same. I'm still convinced there is something to this VW but not exactly certain what the benefits are at this point. Time will tell.

[Old MS Accout]

Eric,

From the VW that I saw, the Radar wing would be the same thickness.

[skibug]

OK, just to qualify, in a past life I was a automated tooling design engineer. I am fortunate enough to have some resources at my disposal; so, I went for it. Much like richarddoane I made my own. I scaled it off of the pics in this thread the best I could and put it into a 3D parametric solid model; then had it CNC'ed. I estimated the wing angle (down) to be 110 degrees; and the leading edge to be 40 degrees. See attachment. I rode it for one set. My impression was that it initiated the turn better and kept the tip down; but, seemed to be more work behind the boat and to get width. I did have a small degree of downward pitch in the ventral because the hole pattern on the Goode drawing had a .066" offset in vertical position of the mounting holes. Next time out I will ride it exactly flat and see if that changes things.

 

Verdict "further diliberation needed"

 

/vanilla2/uploads/FileUpload/12/732.jpg

[JC McCavit]

How about attaching the source file packaged with the model to open in AutoCAD.

[Wish]

Measurements on the diagram/model itself would be extreamly helpful. No access to CAD.

[tsixam]

I understand the concept of the VW but can anyone explain why a bent wing would be better than a straight?

 

Tsixam

[kstateskier]

wow... the level of nerdery just went to a whole new level around here! nice work Skibug!

[skibug]

I tried to load the solid works and AutoCAD files but they are not allowed or supported by the site. Here is the PDF. The mounting holes are not included as I did that after the part was cut out because I wanted to get a better feel for the size and spacing. I wound up using a pan head, philips #6-32 UNC screws. If you want the AutoCAD file and/or Solid Works (3D solid) let me know and we can work out an email exchange....added a revision..hopefully no one committed to this wholly yet. There were some questions as to the leading edge continuing to the end of the part; which it does. There were just some machinability factors in the earlier posted PDF...I revised it to show the end product.

[JC McCavit]

You have to be careful what you ask for on this site, you just might get it!

[disland]

How about someone enter me running 38 off into the CAD machine and then I wont even have to ski and can read my scores on usaws web site

[Ed_Obermeier]

JD wrote "FWIW, I moved my bindings back 1/4" and the ski came alive..."

 

Joe, just for clarification - you left the fin untouched, just moved the bindings back a bit, correct?

[DW]

Interesting comment, certainly adding a trim tab device that appears to simulate adding tip and stability would also open the door to moving the bindings back to take advantage of the benefits of that without some of the penalties normally associated with that move (tip rise comes to mind).

[Old MS Accout]

skibug

check your in box

[skibug]

MS, left you a response; but, I had to click on you handle to see what you wrote. Your message didn't come thru to my in box; but, I did get one from Brent and MCskifreak today.

[jdarwin]

Ed - yes, I did not modify the fin settings. In fact, since I jumped on this ski last June, I have made no adjustments. When I installed the VW several weeks ago, the first change I noticed is how early the tip engaged in my glide before turning in for the gates. Moving bindings back always makes the ski quicker and easier to move out off the 2nd wake. The downside is tip rise out of the turn, especially on side. With the additional stability of the VW, I thought a backward adjustment of the bindings may be possible without the typical downside. So far, I'm finding that is the case.

[skibug]

jdarwin, what are you riding? I am on a 68" Z7 ST w/FB at 30.375". I think I felt what you described with the VW; but, more in the pre-turn and it maybe the reason for not casting out to the buoy line. I felt like as soon as I made the edge change the tip started digging. The ski never stopped though; it kept moving through apex and hook up. I just had to pull a little longer to make sure I would be outside the buoy line.

[jdarwin]

skibug - Goode 66" Mid. It was distinct in the preturn as well but more apparent in the glide for the gates where you have some time to analyze what's going on. I was on D3's for 4 years. D3's want to change to the inside edge if you are not strong w/ the handle off the 2nd wake. I can certainly see where moving the bindings back one hole would benefit - especially if you are using a VW.

[skibug]

jdarwin, thanks for the insight. I may play with the binding position a little more.

[tsixam]

Skibug,

 

You can convert your Solid Work file into an Edrawing. Then anyone who want´s to open it can download a free viewer. You can also convert it into an edrawing .exe file, but it might get stuck in the receivers firewall.

http://www.solidworks.com/sw/products/free-cad-software-downloads.htm

 

Tsixam

 

[skibug]

tsixam, I have it in an edrawing format; but, the site won't take it. I can send it to you via eamil if you like. The AutoCAD file can be viewed by Volo view from the AutoDesk site. It is a free viewer as well. I have all formats.

[norcalibu]

Been a lurker here for a while, would like to get some input...

 

Based on Horton's past opinions on wing's and their use by skier's skiing longer line length's and <36 mph, I pulled mine off of my A1 when I got it and very happy I did. Thanks John. My question is this: I have now gotten to the point where I'm skiing 34mph 28 off fairly consistently and want to start working on 32 off. Should I put the standard wing back on or would I be better off with a VW? Try a small VW solo? Or with a reg wing? Thoughts?

[Horton]

I say try it. If it feels good go with it. If it feels like heck, take it off. That simple.

 

The non-wing skiers are a semi rare breed (not sure why). More in SoCal than elsewhere - I think.

[Boody]

I concur with Horton, if you don't like it you can adjust it or just take it off. A lot of skiers use a wing so there is something to it. I can only think of two people that don't run a wing and ski great, Horton is one of them.

 

[ForrestGump]

I know of more than a few Big Dawg skiers that don't run wings into 41 off.

[Boody]

ShaneH, that is amazing. I've been skiing for a long time and can count on one hand how many folks don't run a wing. I would have lost that bet.

[Horton]

@Boody

My skiing is not all that great.

[Horton]

For me at 34 - a wing = over turning and less width. Try it. Can't hurt.

At 36 it is a must.

[Wish]

If I take the wing off, does anything (fin setting, boot setting) need to be changed??

[RichardDoane]

skied for the second time yesterday with the "Zap" version of the VW (no downward bend), and it went great. I'm leaving it as-is, and working on more important aspects of my skiing... vision-up, handle control, gate timing, edge change, etc. Less wing angle, and the small amount of added drag from the VW seem to make my Strada even better.

[norcalibu]

Wish - I didn't change my fin setting at all. Still at stock HO A1 numbers. Removing the wing made the ski accelerate much easier. The only problem that I've had has been the tail letting go if I hit the turn a little hard (when I'm running late). 34/28' off. Going to start working on 32 off and might try a small VW by itself as I really don't want to add the drag of the reg wing back into the mix.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Hey Richard - describe your wing setup please. You said "less wing angle"; stock wing on the Strada is 8 degrees, wing mounted USD. 1) How much did you reduce wing angle, and 2) where did you mount the mini (VW) wing? If you've added more than one describe your placement please.

 

Thanks, Ed

[Deanoski]

Richard has great u tube vid on page 5 !!!

 

i'm making some this week.

 

Deano

[RichardDoane]

Ed - I usually run 10' on my regular wing, screws up, but toned it down to 8 with the VW. I followed the dimensions that OB posted for placement, and only have just the one VW. I made my own, so it has very little downward bend, but seems to be working well the past 2 weends.

[Roger]

@Horton - "For me at 34 - a wing = over turning and less width. Try it. Can't hurt.

At 36 it is a must."

 

I believe around 91 or 92 Lucky set the US Open Mens record at 1 @ 41 off on a Stiletto with no wing.

[Horton]

after reading that, I am putting one back on. Maybe two

[skibug]

Feedback has fallen off...anyone else out there still skiing on one? I skied mine again tonight. I have been experimenting with on / off every other set or so to see what I feel. So far, I really like the stability through the turn and at the end of the turn keeping the tip down. It still feels like more work behind the boat though. I moved the FB back to see if I could free the ski up a little bit; but, I am not sure I like how it felt.