Larson at 1/4 speed from Laku in Windsor CO Big Dawg 2010

[Horton]

[Horton]

Sorry about the first minute of the 39 1/2. Just skip ahead. My goof

[Lieutenant Dan]

A question for you short-liners out there related to this and what I have noticed with some of the other 1/4 speed videos.....I've noticed that there is a transition at the end of the turn from somewhat of a "wheelie" to getting the ski to get angle across course. How is this accomplished? Is it by closing the hips in the direction you want to go? Is it loading up the trailing arm? Is it shoulders back? A combination of all of these things?

[Horton]

@Lieutenant Dan

that transition you see is the guys pushing.... not skiing as perfect as they can. There should not be a wheelie and the turn should blend into the turn. Go back and watch the TW 1/4 speed 32 off pass. That is how I want to ski.

[bigtex2011]

i like the wheelie... it is cool

[MrBrown]

While watching the Big Dawgs at 1/4 speed, I don't recall any of them applying heavy front foot pressure and driving the front of the ski in the water to initiate their turn in for their gates. (which may possibly cause too much drag & load) At 39off, Scott appears to slow his ski down for his turn in for his gates by shifting his weight back on the tail.

 

Scott appears to me to have the best body position (stacked) out of all the Big Dawgs so far. He is also noticeably standing taller and gets his chest out proud with elbows to the vest. However, I noticed that Scott did compress a bit more at his 39 gate compared to his 38. On Scott's 39off pass watch where the water is breaking under the ski the entire pass!

 

[Lieutenant Dan]

I get it that these guys are scrambling or "pushing" as Horton says and therefore that the technique is not optimum. I even see a bit of the "wheelie to angle" transition with TW although nowhere near as much as this skier. Since we all have to scramble sometimes, I am still wondering how good skiers like this are able to go from pointing straight down the lake and riding on the tail to super-angle with most of the ski in the water.....

[ForrestGump]

There's no real secret. They don't give up(which is what us mortals do when the ski points at the sky or boat) and align their hips with the direction they want the ski to go, not the direction it's going. Regina is the best at this.

 

 

[35 in the bag]

More speed out of the turn translates into the possibility for more speed/angle behind the boat given the same amount of "pull" effort.

 

My take on the wheelie/ski turned down coarse at the end of the turn is that they are, almost instinctively, doing every thing they can to prevent an "overturn"/stall situation. The opposite way of saying it is that they are tyiing to maintain all possible speed until the point of hookup. The more speed one has at point of hook-up, the less acceleration (load) is needed to generate cross coarse speed, angle and the needed resulting width on the opposite side.

 

As one learns each successive shortening, I believe one of the more common mistakes is to over-turn, dig-a-hole, then overload as a result, getting stood-up at or before the wakes. The contortions you are seeing is a combersome looking way of, what I call, "aborting the turn", in an effort to "ski back to the handle" and hook up lighter than otherwise if one overturned.

 

My 2 cents

 

John M.

[ForrestGump]

I know and ski with a few 41 off skiers and if they turned the ski to the boat like that, it wouldn't be on account of trying to not overturn. As the rope gets shorter, you have a tendency to push on the ski earlier and earlier. Push too soon and the tip goes to the sky and the ski finishes pointed at the boat. Then you're scrambling to make up for what you did at the apex or before.

[MrBrown]

If you watch where the water is breaking under Scott Larson's ski at 39, it is almost always breaking under the front binding or behind the front binding. Schnitz mentioned one time that he thought about shooting a video of himself skiing with a ski that had the entire ski, in front of the bindings, sawed off.

 

 

(Watch Scott come out of 5 ball at 39 with his hips trailing slightly and then near the first wake lock his elbows in, hips up, and chest out and watch the resulting explosive acceleration/angle)

 

[Chef23]

Regarding not using the front of the ski I just re-watched the TW video and he definitely uses the front of the ski particularly on his offside. I was surprised at how much ski he had in the water on his 1-3-5 turn. Even on his onside the water was breaking at the front of his binding. It probably isn't a coincidence but TW had much less tip pop at the end of his turns even at 39 than Larson does in the video.

[MrBrown]

Larson and TW have two very different styles and are also skiing at two different speeds. I've personally seen Larson stroke 39 with very little or no tip rise. TW has a very different style of skiing in comparison to Larson. Larson's style is much more duplicable for the average skier (man or woman), whereas TW's style would take much more strength and time to duplicate, much like MB's style. You don't see many pro women skiing TW's or MB's style.

 

Usually (but not always) the more a skier bends his knees, usually the more a skier uses the front of his ski during the pass like TW, or MB. Usually the taller a skier skis with elbows locked to the vest, arms straight, hips up, chest out, the less he uses the front of the ski throughout the entire pass.

 

More ski in the water usually means more drag and more load. David Nelson said for a skier to ski cross course at a 45 degree angle, the ski actually needs to be pointed at an approx. 48+ degree angle. As the ski travels cross course it acts much like a plow displacing the water out in front of it. More of the ski in the water means more water that is being displaced which equals more drag and more load!

 

I've heard some skiers comment that they are applying front foot pressure while skiing cross course which is just driving more ski in the water which equals more drag/load. Super efficient Schnitz as a result of his elbow locked to the vest, hips up, chest out, handle in the pocket,.. is actually pulling up on his front foot/binding as he skis cross course with more weight naturally distributed on his rear foot (and I do the same!)

[MrBrown]

hahaha Yep, here you go again! hahaha ps, my response isn't that long!!! I was trying to keep is short!!! :-)

[MrBrown]

Sounds good! Thanks for the invite! I assure you, just trying to add a different viewpoint on slalom. I will take it easy and keep it short! Some of the things that I learned from Schnitz do actually work! (but please don't saw off the front of your ski! ha )

 

[Klundell]

@skiing2heaven I hear what you are saying about more ski in the water creates more drag but I don't think it actually applies like that. I think the more back on the ski you are the more water you are plowing. Like a bad swimmer whose hips drag and has to push more water to get through it. If you swim with your head above water you will have less surface area on the water but you will be pushing a whole lot more water to move forward that's why its less effective. I wouldn't want pressure on the top of my foot going through the wakes. I want equal pressure on both feet balanced and stacked with ski on a good plane.

[jimbrake]

OB - "Here we go again..." - my thought exactly. Facepalm.

 

Where is Robert Marking when we need him?

[jimbrake]

No. You don't think....

[MrBrown]

@Klundell Thanks for the thorough response! Here is what @mattbrown just mentioned in the "is tip rise bad" thread about Brent's skiing. (Great review by the way @mattbrown)

 

@mattbrown wrote .....starting at 38 and more so at 39 he begins pulling longer into 1,3,5 carrying more speed ergo the tip rise on that side...notice there is no tip rise on 2,4....but, why is he pulling longer into 1,3,5? this brings me to my next point, he's more on the back of the ski when the load comes out of 2,4 then he is 1,3..notice where his hips are.........skiing2heaven you are right to some degree in that you can get more acceleration on the back of the ski, however, ownly momentarily (for Brent), once his (Brent's) hips fall back behind his feet like from 4 to 5 at 38, you he looses his acceleration and creates more load (more ski in the water) making it mandatory for him to pull longer into the next turn...

 

 

When you are accelerating out of the turn...

 

-do you lean back towards the tail of the ski to accelerate?

-or do you drive the front of the ski the water to get the ski to accelerate?

 

 

If you get too much weight distributed on the front of the ski cross course will it.....

 

- make the ski faster?

- or will it cause the ski to slow and for you to be pulled out the front?

 

 

In boat racing, to hit top speed does the driver.........

 

- trim the engine to drive the front of the boat down in the water to go faster?

- or does he trim the engine to bring almost all of the boat out of the water to go faster?

 

 

 

 

[matthewbrown]

Too accelerate at the finish of the turn you certainly wouldn't lean backwards toward the tail of the ski and towards the direction you just came from....that only shoots the ski out in front of you accelerating the ski momentarily but leaves your body behind, now your ski has to slow down to wait for your body to catch up or you'll fall over backwards....this can't be disputed it's basic physics....we're not trying to accelerate just the ski, we are trying to accelerate the ski+our body....also, at the finish of the turn you wouldn't lean forward putting pressure on the front/tip of the ski driving it into the water and pulling you up from your lean as @skiing2heaven mentioned it totally slows the ski down. On that plane we are talking about, you just want to be centered on the ski out of the turn, centered meaning forward and back on the ski(not referring to center being how much pressure on front or back foot, but referring to your mass ceneterd on the ski).

The other plane of reference is the most critical....at the finish of the turn, is the skier leaning far enough to the inside(direction of next buoy) to ensure that they stay on top of the ski(not rocking to the back of the ski) through the finish of turn and approaching the wakes. Most of us, at the finish of the turn try to get our hips up to the handle and shoulders back into that nice stacked postion which is fine but all I'm saying is that if you can do this while keeping your mass centered on the ski, not rocking back, then you+the ski accelerate, and when you watch a skier who skies like this it looks nothing like someone riding the tail of the ski. They are noticeably lighter and much quicker on the water. Look at Nate's gate at 41, it's as if he falls straight to the right for his turn in on the gates(direction of travel) and he's still staying stacked with hips up but he's using the entire ski to accelerate staying perfect like this through the wakes. I'm not sure how many more times we all have to keep hashing this out but riding the tail of the ski makes you slower and less efficient. That being said, there is an argument out there that maybe tail riding helps you control your speed better and helps skiers fell like they are in greater control and maybe faster isn't always better.... but I think that the great skiers who do tail ride out of the turn always find a way to get back to center just enough to get the acceleration they need.

[Horton]

Ladies and gentlemen can we have a big round of applause for Mr. Matthew Brown? Slalom skier and voice of reason.

[jipster43]

Yeah. That was nearly as rad as watching him ski. Makes total sense. Thanks Matt!

 

[Chuck_Dickey]

Great explanation, Thanks Matt

[MrBrown]

Thanks Matt for the time to write such a detailed description! That's great! Obviously, your consistant skiing into 41 shows that what you are doing works and I personally have been very impressed with you skiing!

 

I am just attempting to share my school of thought that I have learned from Schnitz ! Schnitz has always said that the ski is fastest on it's tail.

 

Schnitz has always said that when a skier is standing tall in a Stacked Position with his ....

 

-legs fairly straight

-hips up, forward, and centered over the bindings

-chest out

-shoulders back

-elbows to the vest

-arms straight

-handle low

-head level

-core muscles engaged

 

......that the skier in this stacked position will have more of his weight naturally distributed on the back portion of the ski. He will be in a "tug of war" body position and ready for the load of the boat.

 

Schnitz calls this the "stick style" of skiing,....Mike Morgan, Lucky, Jeff Rodgers, Harald H,.....etc.

 

@mattbrown wrote....That being said, there is an argument out there that maybe tail riding helps you control your speed better and helps skiers feel like they are in greater control and maybe faster isn't always better.... but I think that the great skiers who do tail ride out of the turn always find a way to get back to center just enough to get the acceleration they need.

 

In regards to this statement, Schnitz has an article call "Speed Control for Your SKI". He goes into saying that when a skier is standing tall, elbows locked to the vest, and hips up, that there is NO WAY for a skier to DROP HIS HIP AWAY from the boat into too much angle. This is how a skier can control his cross course speed and cross course angle by using this standing tall, hips up, super stacked position.

 

Thanks again for your feedback! :-)

 

 

 

[ForrestGump]

Unfortunately, Schnitz hasn't been relevant since he had to eat crow over Coordinates and Jim Michaels.

[MrBrown]

@ShaneH Yep,...but some of aspects of coordinates works though! I've seen Schnitz run 38's and 39's over and over! He's a machine!

 

So how does Jeff Rodgers go out and run 4.5 @ 41off @ 34mph setting a new MM record? Jeff is skiing with his "old skool", "stick style" of skiing, with his straight front leg, hips up, and weight distributed back?

 

Oh by the way, Jeff Rodgers ran 1 @ 43off @ 36mph back in 1997.

 

What's Jeff Rodgers secret?!?!? How does he get cross course do quickly?!?!?

 

 

Jeff Rodgers Sets New Masters Men Record, 4@41, at Trophy Lakes 9-3-2011 (4.5 @ 41 since then)

 

Jeff Rodgers 43 @ 43 Official Trailor

 

Interesting stuff! Jeff Rodgers cracks me up in his interviews! hahaha

 

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

@ShaneH Be nice to Schnitz. Michaels conned a lot of skiers. I talked to him before he got caught and he was very convincing.

 

In the evolution of slalom, coordinates was an interesting idea. It does not work for me and I do not know anyone who really trys to ski that way but I am sure we as a group learned something from messing with it.

 

If nothing else Steve does belong in the Hall Of Fame

[Horton]

@skiing2heaven If a skier archives what you describe as stick skier, they are more centered than most skiers. They have ample ski in the water. This is what most modern coaches teach.

 

No, it is not super forward it is basically how we all already try to ski. What the hell are we talking about?