1st Z-Box Report

[Phil2360]

http://skiall6.com/forum/9-boat-talk/142-z-box-report-

 

Has some video as well.

 

[Razorskier1]

This is great! I have SG and DBW on my 2005 MC 197 TT. I have ordered my zbox and am looking forward to testing it in the spring!

[scuppers]

Really great split screen video. Thanks! Oh and the best part - no insane music behind it. Thanks for that too.

[alex38]

I bet it will be awesome on a DBW boat.

[skihart]

Nice! The first report in sounds great. I am thinking that my order should go in soon. I can't wait to hear a few more accounts.

[markchilcutt]

So i just started looking into the Z Box and i am really stoked. Finally something to get me closer to a tournament pull behind my 06 LXI for $850!!! I wanted some input from a pro that had skied it and TWhisper was nice enough to respond back to me via e mail. Terry's thoughts " for the money he thinks its well worth it and definetly has the ZO feel" "he also mentioned it may be even better since he skied behind it in the fall since they may have made some more tweaks to the system" Enough said. Also sounds like PP is currently producing more units due to all the demand! so it sounds like availability is not an issue?

[501Brandon]

I installed today (4days later than I wanted) planning on skiing Sunday (in dry suits). I have no idea how to report to you guys since I have very little experience with Zero Off for comparison purposes. I am excited about it though...

[Double7s]

What video editor was used to split screen?

[Phil2360]

Hmm,

 

Mines in the country now!

 

But it's Saturday morning so won't see it for this weekend.

Oh Well. Maybe one day after work/school.

 

Date/Time Location/Activity

Feb 3, 2012 2:19 PM ALEXANDRIA AU/In transit

Feb 2, 2012 7:32 PM ALEXANDRIA AU/In transit

Feb 2, 2012 7:32 PM ALEXANDRIA AU/International shipment release - Import

Feb 2, 2012 5:03 PM MASCOT AU/At destination sort facility

Feb 1, 2012 11:16 AM HONOLULU, HI/In transit

Feb 1, 2012 11:05 AM HONOLULU, HI/In transit

Feb 1, 2012 4:23 AM MEMPHIS, TN/In transit

Feb 1, 2012 2:45 AM MEMPHIS, TN/Departed FedEx location

Feb 1, 2012 1:10 AM MEMPHIS, TN/Arrived at FedEx location

Jan 31, 2012 11:06 PM MIRABEL, PQ/In transit

Jan 31, 2012 9:32 PM MIRABEL, PQ/In transit

Jan 31, 2012 8:32 PM DIEPPE, NB/In transit

Jan 31, 2012 7:24 PM GOFFS, NS/In transit

Jan 31, 2012 5:27 PM DARTMOUTH, NS/Left FedEx origin facility

Jan 31, 2012 4:13 PM DARTMOUTH, NS/Picked up

Jan 31, 2012 2:54 PM /Shipment information sent to FedEx

 

 

[Phil2360]

Another bit of video from the same bloke,

but with audio as well.

 

[Ryno]

Just had mine on the water for the first time. The upgrade is definitely worthwhile.

 

My boat has an outboard, so I'll need a few more tweaks to get it perfect. However for an open water slalom run, my boat (with standard stargazer) used to vary speed by + or - 2 kph. With the Z box it now varies by less than 1 kph, and feels much more solid when you're loading the line.

[6balls]

Whoa nelly...you had SG on an outboard and are now running a Z-box???

[Ryno]

Yep, the lake where I have my slalom course doesn't have a proper boat ramp (and is only about 5 feet deep throughout) so you can't really get an inboard off the trailer.

My Flightcraft 18XL has a better wake than most inboards anyway, so with the Perfect pass it's a pretty sweet setup.

[skihart]

@Ryno How did you figure out how to get it on an outboard??? Trial and error? That's impressive man....seriously. Is it a new drive by wire outboard? It can't have a mechanical servo under there...?

[6balls]

I skied a flightcraft OB once and the driver told me every pull lifted the bow 4 inches and took off speed. Then I pulled Razor1 w/it and he broke the rope. How does the system react?

I used to ski a hand driven, 225 hp Centurion Falcon Barefoot in the course into 35 off at 36 mph but gave the driver a work out there as well. We always assumed speed control was not possible on the outboards. Please tell more.

[Ryno]

@skihart Yes it has a mechanical throttle and the servo mounts underneath the engine cover without any clearance issues. See Photos:

http://static.cl1.vanilladev.com/ballofspray.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/75/782d5554f0c1b1f8046e26cb1cea12.jpg

http://static.cl1.vanilladev.com/ballofspray.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/d8/c0a2fb6e1f3b20f8b08abd0adc4d5e.jpg

[Ryno]

@6balls When slaloming behind my boat I make sure the engine is trimmed all the way down, so it drives the bow of the boat into the water and makes the wake as small as possible. If you were lifting the bow on that other Flightcraft, it must have had the engine trimmed up a bit, as the bow doesn't budge on mine.

The speed control works really well, and with a few more tweaks (as the standard settings are all designed around inboards) it will only get better. The great thing about the Flighty is that it weighs around 500kg less than a SN200, so that all helps in putting out a small wake.

[danbirch]

I thought outboards fishtail when you pull against them?

[Ryno]

Probably the inboard mafia spreading rumors! ; )

Mine has the ski pole just in front of the outboard, and it tracks fine through the course.

[Horton]

I think I am going to get to ski Z Box this weekend... looking forward to it.

[skihart]

@Ryno....Nice work on getting the servo in there. Did you do it all yourself?

The flightcraft's have tracking fins, no?

 

[Jody_Seal]

If memory serves me Perfect Pass has been working on and installing their product on Outboards for a number of years now. Their first outboard install and used was at the 1996 or 97 Moomba. If the Z-box works like it is supposed to will we be seeing a resurgence of Clamp-on's in the tournament world?

[6balls]

Flightcrafts, Sangers and Centurions all had tracking fins on the outboards and center mount pylons. I've skied 'em hand driven back in the day into 35 off at 36 mph.

Ryno, how does the application do at trick/wakeboard/swivel ski speed when the hull is trying to decide whether to plane or come off plane? I still have Centurion Falcon Barefoot on my home public lake lift and that speed is the biggest problem for me.

I'm amazed and impressed at your work getting a SG to work on outboard...kudo's.

[Ryno]

@OB 58kph and the 13m is the shortest we've used so far, but that's a limit on our talent - not the boats!

 

@skihart Yes I installed it all myself. My model flightcraft doesn't have tracking fins, but tracking down the course doesn't seem to be an issue due to the rear mounted ski pole and the amount of hull I run in the water. If you click on my avatar you'll see what I mean by how much hull is in the water the the outboard trimmed all the way down.

 

@6balls I initially had some dramas in using wakeboard mode, but this was due to the KDW value being too high. The stock setting is 80, but once I dialed that down to 50 the speed control at slower speeds became spot on. I think it helps that my engine is fuel injected with these slower speeds, as I know carburetor-ed engines can be a nightmare to drive at trick speeds due to the power delivery low down.

[Ryno]

@jodyseal When I purchased my Stargazer kit from perfect pass 18 months ago, they didn't make an outboard specific kit. So I just purchased a generic mechanical throttle kit and fabricated the attachment that connects it to the throttle.

I seriously doubt you'll start seeing new outboard boats enter the market and start to be used at tournaments due to the standard now being inboards. Though if someone is after a cheap boat to get into tournament skiing, I've seen similar vintage Flightcraft's (in the states) sell for around $8k. Then once you slap P/P with Z box on for around $1.5k, and you've got yourself an awesome boat that puts out a better wake than almost all current boats on the market.

If a company was to start making a similar hull with my kind of setup, and a modern 4 stroke outboard, the running costs would be a lot less due to the fuel saving alone.

[Ryno]

@OB Yes it is that good. Other boats I've skied behind (regularly) in the last 12 months include:

 

2004 Malibu LXi (My parents boat)

2011 Ski Nautique 200OB (Auckland Waterski club boat)

2009 Mastercraft X7 (mates boat)

 

The worst wake out of these in my opinion is the X7, followed by the LXi, then my Flightcraft, then the Nautique.

[Ryno]

@scotchipman You may be right... But at those rope lengths it doesn't really matter what the wake is like as you are so close to the boat. If you read my earlier posts, I'm not trying to say my boat should be the new tournament standard. I'm just saying for the money it's a bloody good ski boat, and in my circumstances I have to use an outboard - so it's just fortunate that it skies as good as it does.

[Ryno]

@OB In Nowra, New South Wales. - it's a couple of hours drive south of Sydney on the coast.

[Ryno]

@scotchipman The only way you'll be able to assess that (because you don't seem to believe me on how it drives) is to jump in mine and have a drive. But mate, it's not like I'm selling Flightcrafts, hell, they don't even make them anymore!

[Ryno]

@scotchpman Without speed control you're having to drive the boat with one hand on the wheel. Also did these boats have Hydraulic steering or cable?

Honestly, with the cruise control and hydrualic steering on mine, it is no harder to drive through the course that my olds LXi.

[Ryno]

We've gone way off the topic for this thread though!

 

Z-box is great... Buy it!!!

[501Brandon]

We skied today, first day with Z-Box... I could tell even without a skier just in how it would engage coming out of the hole. When a skier was there the engine surge was different as well and seemed to be in short bursts for the skier (A1 setting). Our conditions for a good analysis were poor with a very strong wind right down the lake, in fact we probably would have left it were July it was that rough. So far I like it and am very excited about figuring out what setting works well for me!

[Horton]

Tony A. brought his 2002 196 GT 40 to the lake today with Stargazer Z Box.

 

It was an interesting day. Unfortunately I only took one ride and none of us took a ride after we started talking about adjustments. What I'm about to describe is going to be different with every boat, engine and propeller combination. With this boat and the out-of-the-box settings, I described it as "More Zero Off than Zero Off". What I mean by that is that it was an exaggeration of the Zero Off feel. In this case that out of the box feel was unfriendly.

 

After skiing and re-reading the manual we believe that if we adjusted the ZBX setting it would be a very close approximation of zero off. It also seems possible that it could be tuned to feel more like one specific ZO boat or another.

 

The below video is disappointing. I was hoping that you could hear the throttle. Unfortunately my video camera does not like the sound frequency of the 196. a lot of it sounds like crap.

 

 

[thager]

Horton, It may be the 02 196 hull. My 02 PCM 330 with ZO pulls a lot stiffer than MS's 08 196 club boat. Sounds just like your audio. Once you get used to it though, all the other boats are easy. Stay Stacked!! You can calm it down with prop cup, weight in the nose, more fuel and/or people in the boat.

[Horton]

I like this boat with PP Classic. The ZBox- out of the box was just harsh. My guess is that a few hours of tweaking it will be really nice

[bishop8950]

I installed my ZBox and it was a piece of cake. Got it to the lake and felt no accelerometer action. Correction, I felt one gas response from the accelerometer at the gate then no further adjustment. With some investigation I found out that because my throttle had no return spring, the accelerometer would accelerate once and couldn't back off. The servo applies the gas and depends on the return spring to pull the throttle back down. My boat (2000 Response LX) has a push pull cable so no return spring required apparently. I have since installed one and look forward to my next test run and will report back next few days. Interestingly, the StarGazer bit worked well to deal with the lack of return spring and delivered pretty good segments and 95s at the end.

 

KB

[acmx]

@Horton, I heard the throttle increase ALOT mid course, and then slowly decrease out the gates with the last two skiers in your video. Will be interesting to see if it can be adjusted to feel right.

[usaski1]

So 2 things that I have not herd so far. Can Z-box be tweaked to feel exactly like ZO? (or pretty close to it) And If it can, is Perfect pass going to go down the path of getting stargazer with Z-box an approved tournament pull? The latter would be huge for sales of the Z-box.

[Chuck_Dickey]

I believe the rule is; if no current boat is available for the tournament, the newest previously approved boat available is acceptable. R tournaments excluded.

 

The whole reason for the z-box is driven around mechanical linkage and servos's all 2007 and newer TBW boats will accept ZO.

 

There are a couple years of TBW that are not directy compatible with ZO so the Stargazer and Z-box will help them.

[auskier]

i skied Z box last night for the first time. 07 LXi with 340 monsoon with factory settings.

I normally ski A2 behind a malibu or CC. Similar to what JTH said, to me it felt more agressive. From second wake to ball it felt INSANELY fast and I was struggling with it. It would then shut down and give you nothing out of the ball, so I was getting in deep easily. Going to B2 felt more like ZO A2 and gave me similar line control and feel at the ball which i like about A2.

Is anyone else with a 1:1 trans playing with the settings, as suggested in the users guide?

[usaski1]

Well, that's it. I'm too far gone. Cart me off to the white padded room, I'm un-saveable now. Its 2:31 am. I just had a dream featuring the z-box, a2, and approach angles / bad 3 ball times. I know this is a useless post, and I don't care. I just thought I'd share my mental illness with you all.

[jackski]

usaski1 Including myself, I think many here are in the same boat so to speak.

[JC McCavit]

Since it would be a patent infringement to exactly duplicate ZO, I would not expect that. If my Z-Box provides a close simulation for just over $400.00, how could I ask for more. With so many ways to adjust the PP system I know I will get mine close enough. Every ZO boat I have skied behind felt a little different (maybe it was the boat or something else). Now all I need to do is decide which region of the world, Country, State, water temp, air temp, Nautique 200 version(343/409), etc. etc. I want to try to simulate. But before I do that I just want to thank PP for providing the Z-Box option.

[Broussard]

@JC McCavit I believe Zero Off and Perfect Pass are both owned by the same company.

[usaski1]

@rico what is the " zero off principle" and why could it only be applied to DBW boats with the right ecm? Seems to me zero off is: An electronic speed control that "mimics" hand driving. There in all that needs to be done for any speed control system is to apply throttle for when and how much.

[Marco]

I'm pretty sure PP Classic is RPM based, but Stargazer is GPS. You are correct about PP using a servo while ZO doesn't.

 

[danbirch]

Stargazer is RPM based with a GPS "overlay".

[jackski]

@ rico You don't need drive by wire to get within 0.01, the servo is capable also. There are many factors that infuence all speed controls performance and feel from boat maintenance to human infuences.

[colo_skier]

I don't have zero off but have driven a boat with it and noticed and heard from skiers that have skied it and the comment is that it is always exactly on time. It would thus seem that zero-off is primarily targeting a time through the course rather than a constant speed to achieve that time. Some people have commented that zero-off does not have an "in tolerance" ability, ie It always hits the exact time rather than a time that is still good. Of course the 1st goal of timing without any other variable (the skier load) dictates the second (constant speed). Perfect Pass on the other hand seems to be targeting a specific RPM that will achieve the perfect time. From all that has been written about the difference between the 2 the targeted time method seems to give more repeatable times. I don't think this is any way related to the control mechanism of the speed control as we have PP DBW and servo controlled systems at the lake I ski at and they both perform the same. I wonder if this is due to the fact that if the main goal (algorithm) is to hit a specific time rather than a calculated rpm to achieve that time, then the speed control is operating in just one calculation domain (time). It is the base that all of the digital is working in after all. Just an engineering guess from all that I have read about the ZO PP debate.

[usaski1]

Just thought I'd add, on my 2008 Indmar DBW EFI, I have Stargazer, and no servo, for what its worth. Why don't I have ZO? Wrong ECM.