Stuck tweaking a ski...

[epyscs]

Guys, I need a hand with some ski setup thoughts. I have a few of my own, but wanting to test the thinking with some other opinion.

 

So the ski (Reflex) is set up with front boot middle, and rear kicker (HO) back one hole and canted, but still with toes just touching the back of the front boot.

 

The ski feels good and quick, but here are the things it feels like might require an adjustment (in order of priority of issue):

- Feels like the ski is running too fast at the hook-up. Now this could be normal on a faster ski, but it means I am falling after the buoy. Its worse on the off-side. Its like a half-arsed fall away from the boat fall.

- Off-side, as the tip starts to bite it is notchy - i.e. it feels like I am on little rollers and the tip is coming on & off the bite.

- Ski feels like it rolls up early into the on-side (but still carries out really well) so it feels like I do a Nate and edge-change in the air off the 2nd wake.

- ski is skittish on the flat / round turn. Its not an issue in course as long as I am active on the gate glide).

 

So what I have done so far... moved the kicker back one hole (to stop toes bashing front boot and put me balanced) and added a fraction of wing. It helped ever so slightly in that I felt better balanced.

 

So - any thoughts?

[MattP]

What size ski? What is the distance from the rear of the ski to the heal of your reflex?

[skibug]

Is this happening all the time or just on your hardest line lengths?

[A_B]

If the ski is bouncing into the offside, it normally means pull the tip down a fuzz (add length). Or, take depth out. If the tip is popping up on your onside, take out depth.

 

You could move binders forward, but, If you are near stock binding location, leave alone, and tweak length or depth.

[eleeski]

Break out the grinder! Or add some funky fins.

 

I would never stop tweaking and work to improve and adapt skiing technique instead.

 

Eric

[Ryno]

@AB in the past I have cured the off side bounce by moving bindings forward (rather that adding length). Why is adding length preferred to moving the boots forward from stock?

[epyscs]

All is pretty much stock. Fin numbers are a hair forward of actual, a fraction extra tip. Cant remember exacts, but its near enough stock. And the ski is a new ski, but feels like its just a fraction out to be awesome.

 

@MattP Ski size is 67" and dead on stock.

@Skibug this seems to be all the time. I have only back-to backed 28 off and taken a poke at 32. Fell at 2 ball with the sort of fall away effort after the ball.

@AB its not in to the buoy (i.e. preturn), its as you want the ski to sink in and bite to hook up at the bouy.

@eleeski Have you seen these Reflex skis - it would be a real shame to get a grinder to it.

[skibug]

DON'T GRIND on your ski.

 

Sounds like the ski won't keep moving through the turn. While this could be a technique issue, like not conter rotating enough and closing your shoulders too early, if you want to make a fin adjustment, I would actually try moving the fin back .005" at a time and see what happens. If you are edge changing when you think you are and you get the sensation of too much speed; this will give you a better arc in the preturn with less of a feeling of riding the ski flat and keep the ski down at the finish of the turn. Just my opinion.

 

If you had some video you could post, I am sure you would get a lot more consistant advice

 

 

[9400]

Measure your front boot, never depend on holes.

[eleeski]

While the grinder comment was made in jest, filing edges was a proven and common practice a few years back. While other tuning techniques are more effective (fins and binding placements), filing or bondoing edges is effective. CAUTION!! Many skis use the edges structurally and filing the edges could weaken the skis to an unsafe level!!

 

I have a couple of fin setups I like. I will try the factory fin setup but also try my old standard fin. I'm going to be in trouble when I lose or damage my trusty soft Coyote Carbon fin.

 

Eric

[SkiJay]

+1 for @Skibug. One of the symptoms of the fin being too far forward is hopping at the wake on your off side. The notchy biting can be a symptom of too much fin length. Too much fun length makes it too easy to engage the tip of your ski at the ball and you end up oscillating back and forth across the amount of tip engagement you're trying to get. Just moving the fin back may fix both of these issues as well as give you more support against falling away from the boat. Assuming your front boot measures correctly to the tail (+1 @9400: ignoring plate hole location), I'd start by moving the fin back .015 then, in increments of .005 more after that if it's not enough. I'd also reduce your fin length to stock. Are you confident that you are using "standard" measuring techniques @epyscs?

[epyscs]

@SkiJay - yes more than confident. I learnt from some of the best and no I havent made any of the classic mistakes of relying on anything being correct. So everything was measured related to stock including the bindings.

 

Wil give 2 things a try today... move back a shade and possibly play with a tip setting or two. Will let you know how it goes and maybe even get video if I can.

[epyscs]

Right - update from today. Took out length by reducing depth first set. Ski was better balanced on the on-side and didn't feel like it came up early off the wakes into the on-side. It did however bite hard on the off side. Too hard in fact, which means it cured the notchy off-side hook up.

 

So finally moved the blade back a fraction (probably .02 in the end) and took out small amount of tip and all seemed to work out well. Off-side was great and on-side also felt pretty good. Only problem is I now have 2 pulled forearms from the monster angle this ski wants to generate. Oh and another bent Masterline handle! That's the 5th one of their handles we have done at the lake.

 

Note - I have all the measurements written down but cant remember off top of my head so sorry again if this all sounds vague.

[A_B]

@Ryno, I only mess with bindings if it seems like the attitude of the ski is tip up all over and water break is way off when skiing in a straight line.

 

In general, I believe it is better for ski performance to have the weight slightly back on a ski vs forward. Sort of like a boat increasing speed when you trim up the front by putting weight in the back or like dropping the hydro gate for trick skiing increases the top end.

[Ryno]

@AB Thanks for the clarification... To cure the off side bounce, my bindings were 13mm forward of stock. So now I've moved them back to the std setting, and added 1mm of length to the fin. Here's hoping next time I ski, I'm singing your praises!

[SkiJay]

@Epyscs If you are bending handles, you are over-rotating into slack line at the end of your turn which is a technique issue worthy of a separate thread, but it's also symptomatic of too much FL and too much FDT. The notchy off-side may seem "cured," but by your own description, it's still biting too hard. Notchy and too much bite are closely related. Reduce FL or FDT to give the ski more feel before it bites. In your case, I'd start with less FDT. Move the fin back lots, until you have to work a little harder to finish your on-side turns or until the angle at the wakes in your off-side cut gets to be too much to handle.

[Ryno]

@SkiJay You've mixed me up with epyscs... I only weigh 70 kgs dripping wet, so I it would take the hand of god for me to bend a handle.

I'm not finding slack rope much of an issue at the moment, just the offside bounce when the ski is loaded in the turn.

[SkiJay]

Oops @Ryno, you're right! I wondered why epyscs had moved his bindings forward right after his previous post. It's cause he hadn't! I've edited the post accordingly. What I'd mentioned about having shortened the distance from your front boot to the fin's center of pressure when you moved your boots back still stands. If the hopping comes back, move your fin back. It will put more ski in the water and probably stop the hopping. If that doesn't cure it, take out a little length too.

[epyscs]

Hey this is getting confusing with @Ryno!

 

Yeah its been a while since I have loaded a line like that out of the turn. The ski was really smooth and not grabbing. There was no slack, but it felt like it just kept loading at the end of the turn (and yes it was partly me rotating a bit too much). Will give the ski another try later in the week and adjust slightly more.

 

Thanks for sharing thoughts on this one. And sorry no video this time.