Fluid Motion silveretta with toe block ?

[Stevie Boy]

Has anybody got experience or views on the fluid motion silveretta with toe block, I like the idea of the toe block, but I do not like the idea of the metal on the front of the boot, if you release, is it likely to cause injury ?

[BraceMaker]

It is plastic not metal. I've never been injured by an fm base plate.

 

In theory it is the heel ledge on silveretta boots which might hit you.

[Stevie Boy]

@Bracemaker, ah ha ! thanks for putting me right, didn't realise it was plastic, I haven't actually seen anybody use one.

[BraceMaker]

I've only skied my Revo a few times, got it late last season. I've been on the double boot quattro system since ~2005, so that's going on 7 seasons or so. I have had no hardware problems with it, replaced a few screws that I didn't tighten in time.

 

The Revo I bought to use on a trick ski since the Wiley binding on it makes my foot feel like it will fall off.

 

Essentially all silvretta systems work on the following concept.

 

The heel release engages by being pulled forwards and clamping downwards till it "clicks" over the bar. This provides a force both forwards and down on the heel of the boot. How much force is dependent on a few factors such as the height of the heel ledge, and where the back of the boot is. But these two factors also depend on other things, such as if the boot flexes when you clamp it, or is rigid.

 

The Revo uses the older style Reflex 404 release, it uses a velcro underpad to prevent the heel from sliding on the plate, and it uses the toe block to center the boot, as well as adjust the position of the boot on the plate. Heel ledge is attached by FM at the height they recommend, I think this is 57mm

 

Reflex is the same concept, but uses a Horseshoe at the front, this doesn't slide, but you select holes to determine the length of the boot. There are templates for this online. The heel height is also measured the same, but again should be preset up for you as I recall.

 

I have not weighed the various systems, but suspect FM is a bit heavier than the Reflex or Quantum versions.

[bishop8950]

Years ago i was injured went the plastic base plate broke when i was crossing the wakes. I switched to reflex for the toe loop. Paul was great and sent me replacement parts and even prototypes. Sometimes i miss the FM boot, it is solid and comfy.

 

I suppose the FM plate increases chance of injury but i never had a problem

[Stevie Boy]

Thanks Guy,s, I will probably go with the Reflex, it,s just that Fluid Motion has a better choice in boot sizes.

[Deanoski]

Im a size 10 1/2 and use the 8 shell fits great!! then heat fit the liner liner is nice and thin great control!!

[BraceMaker]

@bishop8950 - just out of curiosity what type of base plate binding was it that broke?

 

About boot sizing.

 

FM has ~5 shells, they're in the XS-S-M-L-XL 35-46 european sizing concept. I would wager most folks pick the smallest one they can get by with, I have Lg's and could probably use Mediums, depending on the forming of the liners.

 

Reflex has ~5 shells, #'s 4 6 8 10 12 36-46 european

 

In reality any of these are long narrow fits, if you have a really super wide foot, even with forming the liners you may feel cramped and should invest in a padded suit and an outboard boat.

[bishop8950]

@BraceMaker - I meant the plastic plate that bolted onto the bottom of the boot and created the bit that stuck out past the toe. Paul may well have upgraded since then. The FM boot felt superior and service was great so I hate to bad mouth. But I couldn't get past the weakness in that piece at that time.

[eleeski]

@Stevieboy The Reflex toe horseshoe can be problematic. Lots of load can bend the plate and allow the horseshoe to move. I've seen some creative solutions but the FM toe might be the best.

 

The Silveretta clip has left some good scars on my shin and I don't have that much time on the system. Wrap it in neoprene.

 

Use caution with changing temperatures. The boot softens enough with heat to substantially change the release. The stiff FM boot doesn't change as much but I don't care for such a stiff boot. Makes velcro not look so bad?

 

Nothing is perfect. Except Gatorade lids!

 

Eric

[MattP]

@eleeski temperature changes?.... You are the only person who skis in the freaking desert!

[eleeski]

At least I will never need to use my ski boat as an icebreaker!

Eric

[Stevie Boy]

I would rather stay with my D3 Leverage, but it,s causing me discomfort, when I want to get out of the ski, all that kicking and shaking is not doing my knees any good, (post surgery)

I have to change my binding, I ski with RTP, if I was two feet in, I would go with Radar or Ho Bindings, friend of mine just brought a pair of the new Ho Bindings and is very happy with them,

My medical team, who also water ski, have advised me not to ski with double boot.

[ForrestGump]

My only problem with the FM system is the use of the 404 release. Silvretta hasn't produced that release since 2000, I believe. I know FM purchased a large stock. But I don't like owning something I can't find parts for readily on my own.

 

I'm on reflex currently and completely happy with the release. Just not so happy with the binding shell itself. It's fine. But the FM shell and liner blows it away in comfort.

[eleeski]

Start with the Intuition regular liner. You will probably need an oversized shell. Huge effect on comfort.

 

The FM shells I've skied were adapted from hockey skates and were way too stiff for my taste - especially for slalom. Reflex and Goode shells are OK flex and the old Fogman shells felt great to me. Adapting skates is straightforward but plastic skates are getting harder to find now.

 

Silveretta clips are reasonably interchangeable. I've swapped the red ones for yellow no problem. They do break. The newest ones seem to last better. I don't know if it's a straight bolt in but adapting a new clip should be straightforward.

 

Every binding has issues. Reflex + rtp is one of the best setups. It might take some effort to optimize it for you (FM toepiece, Fogman shell, Intuition liner, carbon plate, etc) and a bit more maintenance but you should enjoy it.

 

Eric

[BraceMaker]

I know jager has a post on their website for buying back silvretta's for repair.

 

Regardless I do not think the 404 vs the 500 would be a big concern for me, Jager is still selling 404 heels, when that ends I am confident that the 500 can be screwed into the aluminum plate just like reflex does (remember reflex was on 404 heels for a long while too).

 

Biggest thing with any of the silvrettas is that you need to make sure the heel of the boot is the right height for the unit to clamp, I suspect that the 404 release means that the heel ledge is bolted to the boot lower, so if you got a 500 release you'd probably have to bolt a shim under the heel to elevate the boot in order to clamp down.

 

FM's shells are pretty rigid, they get way softer after you drill out the hole under the cuff, and trim the plastic a bit, if you boil them with some dye to change the color (of the white ones) then they act softer. And if you use them awhile they get soft.

 

You can also grind on them to thin out the plastic a bit, and you can buy USD skate cuffs for a few bucks so if you trim the cuff for more flexibility and screw up you can easily replace the part.

 

The point being if you like playing around the FM offers lots of tunability, at a price of course - the Revo is about 540 the way you'd probably want it with buckles and the toe peice and a foam underpad.

 

The reflex can be had a bit less if you dont' want all the add on's. 460 ish I think with a liner, less if you want an intuition (you do).

 

 

[bishop8950]

Yes, 500 release has a different heal ledge height

[Nick Sullivan]

I'm 210 lbs and just tried the Refelex/Wiley setup. I have the Reflex release set at 8.5 and I am still releasing at the ball at times. This hurts, I've hit my ski several times. Granted, I understand this means I am loading the front of the ski up to much but its a bad habbit I have I guess when I get to my shortest line length. It also seems to release way to soon. Should I crank the setting up to 9 or 9.5? Or go back to my Stradas. I really like the edge control with the hard shell.

[BraceMaker]

@sully - first I'd measure that heel ledge height, use your caliper pop the bail off the heel ledge of the boot and measure from the top of the ledge to the plate. I think that measurement is 57 mm, but I'd have to check the reflex manual.

 

Next verify the placement of the horseshoe and the release unit. You may need to pull the plate off the ski - again refer the the diagram in the reflex manual, make sure the horseshoe and the heel unit are in the correct holes on the plate.

 

When viewed from the side, the unit when clipped onto the boot should be leaned backwards slightly, it doesn't go vertical, and it doesn't lean forwards.

 

I'm 180, but I think my number was more like 3.

[Nick Sullivan]

@BraceMaker, Thanks for pointing this out, I just saw the note in the manual that refers to the 57mm distance, it say right below it can cause early release. Thanks again! I'll check this today and let you know what I find out.

[BraceMaker]

Checked my number is a 4.5 on the FM version. But you're maxing out that scale!

[EF23]

Sully, check the gap on the boot to the silvrettas. I would guess it's to low. I'm 215, run 7, no problems. Reflex site has setup insturctions, with the correct gap.

[Nick Sullivan]

Okay, it looks like its 60.93mm. Now what?

 

I did this by using my calipers with the bale open and had my wife push the boot down so it bottomed out on the plate. I measured from the bottom side of the plate to the top of the 3-point cleat.

[BraceMaker]

Interesting, I would have figured on it being lower like @ef23 said but the manual does say high will do premature release.

 

Did you buy the boot separately than the release? I'm assuming by 3 point cleat you have a new boot, so you probably have a 500 release?

 

If you have a 404 then you'd probably have too much height due to the wrong boot.

 

Toss up some pics and I'll think about it a bit, Don't wanna recommend anything that won't work for one reason or another.

[Nick Sullivan]

Fixed the issue. When Miami Nautique shipped the plate and binding to me I got it with these two little 3166 Spacers or bushings taped to the plate. I couldn't figure out what they went to or how I was supposed to use them so I put them aside. One of the guys I ski with who has been on a Reflex for ever, decided to call Bennetts. He told them about the early release problem and they asked what size boot. 10. Did your front toe loop come with the spacers installed?

[BraceMaker]

So with out those spacers, the front of the boot is pulled down lifting the heel up?

 

Do you notice it being any easier to engage the release unit at the heel?

[ForrestGump]

I've got a size 10 reflex without those bushings and have zero issues.

[Nick Sullivan]

@BraceMaker Yes, I guess that is the reason. It is easier now to lock the boot in place

 

@ShaneH, Not sure if my setup is different than yours but in 2012 things seemed to have changed, or at least the plate did. Maybe they changed the toe loop too. Bennett's knew right away what the issue was. This phone call took all of 3 minutes.

[ral]

@BraceMaker, yellow (404) silvrettas have a weak point where the horizontal bar is welded. They tend break over time and resulting falls are ugly. 500's are not welded, and made of Titanal instead of s. steel (titanal is an aluminium alloy that, despite the name, has not seen any titanium in its recipe ever). They last longer. These units are subject to a kind of stress they were not designed for, especially during onside turns.

[BraceMaker]

@ral - I have read that is a failure point. I've also seen 404's in green, yellow, pink etc.

 

Being that the product comes off a retired line of snow ski/telemark/mountaineering bindings it is certainly being put to a different use.

 

Do you know if there is a dimensional difference between the metal bail and the plastic spring unit? Would the titinal frame be able to be screwed/rivited to a 404's base? Does the frame allow you to rebuild a 404 spring unit/cam onto the bail?

 

Regardless, I previously went up the "silvretta chain" meaning dynafit, and salewa shoes for a similar reason as most, wanting to find more information, service instructions etc. for these products, spare part sources (to avoid buying full release units) and it seems like even the 500's are no longer in production.

 

Waterski is a pretty small market, but it seems like folks bought up the stock previously.

 

 

[ral]

@BraceMaker, I am pretty sure Reflex is buying new stuff from Silvretta. Although you can screw a titanal base to a Silvretta, why would you want to do that? To retrofit an old plate? Better make new holes and use the new blocks that allow control lateral movement.

 

Not sure what you mean with "the metal bail and plastic spring unit".

[BraceMaker]

@ral - sorry I wasn't more clear on that -

 

A bail is the part that holds a binding, this is more a cross country term than anything. So I refer to the release as the heel bail from time to time.

 

I've played with those screws a bit. I'm unclear on the purpose, for instance, Silvretta bindings are intended to hold the heel laterally as well as vertically, and if you have an antiskid pad under the heel (which reflex supplies, or velcro like FM does it) then where is the boot going if it is set up properly?

 

Silvretta does it on their actual binding. http://www.wildsnow.com/backcountry-ski-museum/silvretta-404-backcountry-skiing/404-vegas-release.wmv

[ral]

@BraceMaker, plastic is better that steel (assume you are talking about the pre 404 all steel unit). Antiskid does not work too well, and gets worn out pretty quickly. This is why they replaced it with the blocks. Screws work well. Also, the blocks allow to fine tune the Silvretta pressure (two holes where to attach the unit to choose from).

[giddyup]

i am setting up a reflex boot system, its has the 404 on the back with the black boot and the 750 on the front boot with the white cuff is there a pad suppost to be under the black boot heel dose anyone have a pic of the mod to the black boot cuff sorry for the questions just new to the reflex thing