PP Star Gazer

[GOODESkier]

I have been running PP Startgazer with the ZBox, basically doing my best to replicate a Zero Off boat pull with my 2003 Nautique 196. I have it dialed in to really be about as close as possible, and most of the time I can't tell any difference between my boat and a buddies Nautique 200 on the same course.

 

I have convinced a few friends to go with the same set up on older Nautique Mechanical Throttle Control boats. Called Perfect Pass this morning and order a complete kit with ZBox and another software upgrade with ZBox.

 

Gary at Perfect Pass gave me a great deal and just wanted to say how great their customer service is and how fine a product they have. If you have an older boat and want to be as close to Zero Off as possible, this is the way to go. A little tweeking for your individual situation and man it is right there with a good even and firm pull.

 

 

[MZito]

Glad you were successful with PP Star Gazer / zbox. I waisted most of my summer trying to get mine to give a pull that is in the ball park of zo. needless to say its been a nightmare! Gary and Mark have been great, however they can not figure out what is going on with my set up. the system will runaway through the course every time. For 2 mths we tried everything and I have settled on using pp classic. It works good, as soon as the gps is activated the system freaks out...

 

I was really happy with the time and energy pp dedicated to me however, at this point my options are classic (running now) or Gary said send it back for refund. Not the options I am looking for.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Have you tried taking Z-Box out of the equation and just running SG without it? If so do you have the same run away issues?

[ToddF]

@mzito I mapped my course with star gazer no Z box and inverted it. I can dial it in to any time on any segment have you tried that also? Before that I would get some weird things happening.

[gmut]

@ToddF my friend has stargazer no zbox on a 98 nautique 196 and it also will surge from time to time for no reason. please explain what you mean by " inverted it" I am not stargazer literate at all...thanks.

[schafer]

i have stargazer on a 98 nautique 196. and it works fine....until i go to tourneys and get pulled around by ZO. any idea what the zbox runs for cost to add to the mech throttle stargazer? i would love to add if possible

[GOODESkier]

They sold my buddy a ZBox and a software upgrade. ZBox retails for $439,but I bet he will cut you a better deal. Gary is who I have been dealing with.

 

In my opinion, I have my SG w/ Zbox dialed in and pulling extremely close to a ZERO OFF boat. HOWEVER, the ABC 123 settings do not necessarily correspond with the ZO settings. Meaning, I ski C1 on the ZO, but have to run B2 on my ZBox. Took me an entire season to settle on those numbers for each system, BUT I LOVE THEM! I also upped my ZBox setting in the inner menu to make it more reactive to duplicate a firmer pull of the ZO. That is what made it feel pretty darn close.

 

I have been running my 35' OFF consistently on my SG Zbox set up at home and getting a couple balls at 38' OFF, and my last tournament I ran 5 Balls @ 35' OFF 2 out of 3 rounds. AND I don't feel any difference in the speed control, just a little difference in my home site verses another site and a little extra adrenaline! So I have to say, mine is really dialed in.

 

I will post after setting up my buddies boats and see how they both go!

[DanE]

@mzito Before you give up totally, I have been in your situation w/Zbox.-

Tried Everything, but found out I misunderstood the termininology in background settings.

Remember, BALL1 represents time elapsed from entrance gate to buoy#2, BALL3 is buoy #4, B4 to exit is time from buoy #5 to exit Gates.

When I got this right it was easy to Balance out segment Times and they are Perfect now, increased KX to + to firm up the response.

[GOODESkier]

Think the KX only effect the classic slalom, you would need to change the ZBox factor from 11 - 13 or 14 to make it respond quicker. Somewhat guessing on the KX Factor

[DanE]

@GOODESkier I could be wrong, but when I was really tweaking the system around I recall trying KX++ wich I did not like. When I had KXn I had Zbox @ 15 and the pull felt Good, have not tried increased Zbox value this season since the Boat is working so well. I have an ACME 422 installed also to mimic the pull from newer boats. (have a -99SN

[GOODESkier]

I'll try the KX+ Nothing wrong with it skiing as unforgiving as possible!

[jackski]

Kx does have an effect, it controls how quickly, overall, PP responds. Carb boats vs fuel injected are much different, but individual boats are aslo. Background settings zbx & abc, are there so you can match your settings to your friends Zero Off boat. abc is the adjust for the letters. zbx adjusts the numbers.

 

If your boat runs away once gps engages a common problem is electrical interference. I has a slightly loose connection n the starter once that created that. Boat would run & start normal but PP would run away once, or shortly after gps engaged.

Another common problem is interference from adjacent wiring. Never "coil" your excess.

[ToddF]

@mzito there is an inverted setting in the perfect pass menu, I believe it reads the signal different from the tach.

[GOODESkier]

@jackski I talked to Gary at Perfect Pass, and that isn't the same info I understoof from him. As far as the ABC and ZBox adjustments. He said the ZBox adjustment was there to firm up the reaction, the ABC adjustment was to align the pull types on older carbed boats, and he suggested that the KX wouldn't do much in regards to how the Zbox felt. I have not really tried anything with the KX yet, but the ZBox setting can be felt and heard in the boat.

[GOODESkier]

@OB ?

[jackski]

@goodeskier see the Z Box User information sheets that came with Z Box. On page 3 it's pretty clear. Not only that I've been building different motor combinations and I've had to play with these quite a bit and find that description pretty accurate.

@OB unfortunately some of us aren't as well off as you are, but that's no reason to piss on them. Probably why I haven't been to the Nats for some time.

[rockdog]

@OB so why do we see so many people still battling to find a ZO setting that works for them? I don't think their struggles are any different to those still using PP.

[jackski]

@ OB I did overreact but I disagree, it's still talking down. Most of the reason Z Box was developed was to give some of us a chance to ski the same at home as in tournaments that have new boats with Zero Off. A rotary phone is still better then no phone. Around here we don't have even one Zero Off boat pull any of our 5 tournaments a year but, some of our skiers do go away and have to ski behind ZO, so Z Box is great for that.

Nats = similar attitude

[MZito]

@Ed Obermeier

Yes I am just running SG with ZBOX not in the equation, its slightly better than with xbox but way out of time.

 

@ToddF Yes the very 1st thing we tried is inverting the rpm. Mapped the course with SG. The weird thing is that running in RPM mode, the system acts good.

 

@DanE Good info. Gary and Mark did not suggest looking at Ball 1etc..I would like to find out more about what you did to make it work for you. Can you help? The only thing I can think of is I have a short set up, not real short but not long. Boat is to speed at gate...

 

I appreciate everyones help, I really want this system to work. Fingers crossed!!!

 

 

[GOODESkier]

I think the point of my post was lost.......... I was saying that Gary at PP gave me a great deal for a couple friends to get their boats set up with the ZBox and his service is FANTASTIC!

 

I practice primarily behind Stargazer w/ Zbox, but also have a club site I get to on occasion with a 2013 Nautique 200 w/ ZO. I run the same ball count behind both. I have mine dialed in and firm! Much like a turbo snowmobile, it isn't the turbo that makes the sled rock, it is the install and set up! ZO is easier, SG w/ Zbox takes some messing with to get it right on. I am proud of how I have it set up.

[DanE]

@OB When Zbox is properly installed and dialed in there is no difference to speak of to Zero off.

Go to a tournamment at a different site and you have much bigger variances to deal with.

I like skiing behind Zero off as it helps to create Space before the buoys and I am happy I managed to get our old 196 dialed to feel just like a Zero off Boat.

@mzito I'm typing on my phone right now, Will help you with a write up once I hit the keyboard

[DanE]

By the way, for those of you that have Stargazer but no Zbox- make the upgrade if you want to ski tournaments, Stargazer pull is way too soft and it really does not help anyone.

[GOODESkier]

Super Sweet Deal to upgrade right now if you already have SG.......... Call Gary!

[MZito]

@DanE thank you much appreciated. I'm willing to try anything to get this working!!! Ill be out skiing Friday, Saturday,and Sunday.

 

[tru-jack]

@GOODESkier. Any idea what the super sweet deal is now? thanks

[mrpreuss]

.

[schafer]

thanks @GOODESkier Im calling Gary tomorrow

[GOODESkier]

Well, I bought a complete set up and Zbox for a friend, and then just a Zbox and software upgrade for another friend all at once, and it was well worth it. Just call them.

[DanE]

@mzito I assume your throttle is by cable not by wire? If you´ve been in touch with PP you have probably went through most of what I´m going to suggest, but anyway, here it goes.

First make sure the PP cable and throttle linkage don´t stick or bind in anyway (linkage test), if you believe the throttle return spring is somewhat weak add an extra.

It is very important that the return spring can back throttle of quickly, will help the system to settle in quicker.

I added a return spring, lubed the PP cable, manufactured an extra bracket for the cable where it attaches on the stepper motor to prevent it from hanging by it´s own weight and causing a cinch (yea maybe overkill, but I was desperate just like you).

Make sure the stepper motor is working properly (servo motor phase test) and that it has proper voltage (voltage test), I ended up installing a relay to bypass any bad connections to feed the system, now I have the same voltage as alternator output (may seem like overkill, but at SN 1999s dash the circuit breakers are not top quality).

Next determine if rpm signal is to be recieved as standard or inverted (trial and error, choose the one that gets the steadiest readout on rpm´s).

Now it´s time to set baselines, run them at actual times, no tweaking and make sure you have entered correct crew weight (and run baselines in the course to make sure they get exact)

Next you have got to tow skiers to set background settings and adjust for every weight (feather,light,normal etc.) and speed <34.2 and 36 mph.

This is where you change the numbers for Ball1 ball3 B4 to exit, very important that you remember what I wrote in my post above regarding this.

For example: factory setting for normal <34.2 mph if I remember correctly was 11 55 22.

I ended up with 40 30 40, check each segment time, not just ball 1, 3 and exit (very important).

Then adjust feel of the pull with Zbox or KX or both (hint, a higher setting i.e harder pull will make everything better, the boat will keep it´s speed better just like Zero off).

Good luck.

[MZito]

@DanE...WOW thank you for the detailed info. I have done the majority of the steps so far however, am going to lube the string on the servo, what did you use? After that I am going to work on Ball1,3, exit. How did you navigate to this screen?

I will be tinkering with it after work tonight and through next week as I am on a staycation!

 

Thanks again

 

[tru-jack]

@GOODESkier and @schafer, I emailed Gary and the sweet sale is the posted retail price on their website. Did you guys have better luck? thanks.

[DanE]

@mzito The first steps I mentioned are really just making sure the hardware is ok. If there is nothing wrong with it you won't notice any difference. The secret lies in the background settings, it's all in PPs manual how to reach them. When you tow a skier a full pass and press Arrow down the display shows the deviation from actual at each buoy. Goal is to get those deviations within +- 0.01 sec. Pay special attention to buoy #2 (that is BALL1 in all buoy timing chart) you do not want a slow time there coupled with a fast buoy #4(BALL3).

[tru-jack]

anyone, we were trying to dial in a ski partners stargazer last night and regardless of fine tuning we couldn't get the 3 ball time to slow down to the desired 7.13, it would read 7.06 no matter how much we adusted the ball 1 and 3 settings. We thought if we increased the 1 ball and decreased the 3 ball we could get the correct time. No matter what we did, we always got a surge when the boat was between 1 and 2 ball. Anyone have suggestions? thanks

[DanE]

@tru-jack Read this entire thread, all the info you need is here.

Maybe a hardware problem, if you haven't checked Everything (for example a weak return spring if mech. throttle) begin with that or you can drive yourself nuts chasing background settings around.

Fwiw, I found that latest version of Zbox works lightyears better than Stargazer alone.

[alex38]

Only issue ive ever had with SG is comin in a little hot (annoying at challenge passes yes). 1 ball times like 1.75 but seemed like speed was changing thru that segment. So yesterday I called PP and they showed me how to lower baseline for 34.2, I dropped it 40rpm and was getting a nice early engagement (beep) and 1.76 at 1, I dropped it 5 more rpm abd started getting 1.77 at 1 ball.

[alex38]

Also, is anyone using the no magnet upgrade without ZBox? is it cool/worth it? does it upgrade the adjustments options like background settings?

[Phil2360]

@DanE,

Can you clarify what you are saying about Ball 1 & Ball 3 Settings.

When you are saying Buoy 2 & 4, presume you mean the times which should be

4.45 and 9.82? Is that correct?

 

What I've always presumed were the relevant times for the calibrations has always been

1.77 and 7.13. Wave I been looking at the wrong times all along?

 

Ours is dialed in pretty well based on the figures I've checked, but would like to know if I have been looking at the wrong two times.

 

Can you clear that up.

[DanE]

@Phil2360 Yes, you have been looking at the wrong Times.

In PP all buoy timing chart the first buoy is called 0 (time 1.77) second buoy is Ball1 (time 4.45) and so on

[DanE]

@Phil2360 By the way, you have to look at time to each buoy not just the first and third.

It is very common to have a1.77 and a 7.13 and you would Think all is good- well you can still have a 4.48 and a 9.77, that Will give a crappy pull with the Boat running away from you.

I made the exact same mistake as you before I figured this out

[GOODESkier]

I got a better deal by far than posted price, maybe due to bundling............

 

Also, ZBOX Make s the boat! I am skiing same number of balls on ZO as I am on my Stargazer with Zbox. Practice PB of 4 @ 38' OFF on both ZO and SG Zbox and a Tournament PBof 1.5 @ 38' OFF. Makes me believe I have mine dialed in pretty good!