How do I easily tweak baselines in Stargazer? Should I?

[Tdub]

We have a short setup and I always seem to run a little hot into the gates. I try to work the throttle to alleviate this but I see in a few posts that if I lower the baselines it could help. Is there a simple method to lower the baselines? I love SG but still have trouble navigating it. Thanks.

[Fine409]

@Tdub - this link should help you...

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/6734/ed-obermeiers-stargazer-tuning-document

 

 

[GregHind]

@tdub, what software version do you have? You shouldn't have to tweak the baselines, but that kind of thing was necessary with early versions. The latest version is much, much better with setup times. I'll bet you need to upgrade. The new software is better all round so just do that. But first, what version do you currently run?

[Tdub]

8.0 --Thanks for the replies.

[Tdub]

That link @dtm8119 posted is worth its weight in gold. Thanks.

[GregHind]

@tdub if you are running 8.0.0, that version was shocking for setup times being slow. Don't adjust your baselines. Upgrade to 8.0.5r it is a massive improvement all round

 

Greg

[Chef23]

@GregHind does upgrading the version help throttle cable boats?

[Brady]

@Tdub, we were having problems with my baseline, and we inverted the tac and it worked wonders. Within 2 100th on every pass now.

[GregHind]

@chef23 yes it makes a massive difference on mechanical throttle boats. I haven't worked on dbw pp systems myself but I understand they also benefit hugely from the new software.

 

Ed's instructions related to the old versions. They did seem to help some people but the new software is the answer. The pp programmers don't see any reason to have fake baselines. If it were necessary they would alter the programming to suit.

 

Again not to put down Ed's instructions he is a top guy and very clever. However the new software is cheap and it is the best solution.

[rockdog]

@GregHind how much the upgrade? I think mine is 8.02.

[GregHind]

@rockdog best to contact pp directly. I'm in Australia.

[GregHind]

@rockdog 8.0.2 has similar setup problems to 8.0.0. The latest is a big upgrade. Definitely go ahead and do it.

[Deke]

@GregHind‌ what is the procedure to upgrade? I think I remember that the SG box doesn't have an external hookup. Do you have to send it back?

[rockdog]

@GregHind‌ I'm in Melbourne. Not sure whether you're familiar with Bundalong but has terrible curved set ups at both ends plus one is short, I guess this new 8.05 would help with this? I've a 97SN GT40. I'll check with Cassell Marine on price.

[Ed_Obermeier]

@Deke. Guess I wasn't aware there was another update beyond the one I have onboard now, other than to add the No Magnets Required Option. Last upgrade I did (think I'm running 8.02 also) came on a small circuit board looking thing (PROM stick?). You simply take the cover off the box, plug it in (there is a port provided for that), run the upgrade and it has an LED that flashes to let you know it's loading and when it's done. Pretty simple process. Just order the update from PP, they'll send you the upgrade stick thingie. Looked at their web site but didn't find any specifics about what the latest version is.

[GregHind]

I've run them all in lots of boats. Version 7.6 was a lot better than 8.0 and 8.0.2. Definitely get the upgrade to 8.0.5

 

Ball times, setup times and the pull were all a bit weird in early 8 versions.

 

@rockdog I can get you the update but best to leave it until after the American summer there may be another update developed. If you aren't using it for the next three months then wait out our winter. They do most development in the short Canadian summer where they live.

 

Normally pp don't sell the update via dealers. Makes sense you don't want dealers stockpiling and selling old software

[skiboyny]

My ski partner and I recently purchased Stargazer for our boats (within the month) and are having the same problem. (both boats) We have a slight turn in to get to our course on each end. When the boats bank, stargazer brings the speed up. It doesn't seem to settle all the way by the pre-gates. Relative to most sites, there seems plenty of time. At the gates when the timing goes off it seems to drop down a bit and result in a slow 1 ball. I just wrote a note to perfect pass tech support hoping that there is something I can do. Times are always bang on, but sometimes it's not so great how it gets there. Love the ease of operation once it's set up just hoping there is an answer. Any ideas on how to drive it differently would be welcome.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Don't over throttle on pull up. It takes SG longer to settle back down to correct speed than it does to come up to it on throttle up. Find a consistent point to take the throttle handle to on pull up and don't over shoot it. If your return spring is a bit weak that magnifies the issue even more.

[skiboyny]

Ed I've read all your posts with great interest. Over throttling at pull up was one of the main things both of us have worked on. My boat is a throttle body EFI and the return spring passes the visual test, I have wondered about it as it is approaching 20 years old. I wouldn't mind replacing it just to be sure. Not sure where you might get one. It's not like the spring on a carburetor engine. Pretty beefy coil type. I've tried a variety of driving methods and haven't fallen on to anything that I can reproduce.

[skiboyny]

Jack kinne no z box as yet. Hoping to get stargazer settled in first. I did several tests with the throttle return today and it seems to work smoothly as intended.

[GregHind]

@skiboyny what speeds do you ski and what version of software do you run? I would try staying just under engagement speed until you have the boat straight.

 

If you are turning all the way to the pregates I think you either need to fix that or ski in classic mode

 

At moomba there is a curved entry at one end. The answer is a buoy placed before the pregates. You clip the buoy and complete the turn in this predetermined location. Makes it easy to get the boat straight in time

 

Aerial pic for us???

 

Software version??

[skiboyny]

Hi Greg, mostly use 32/34 there are a few that ski slower. Were not really turning all the way. The boat starts straight alongside an island, turns in around the front then straightens out before the pre-gates. Probably have 140 ft of straight run before the pregates once the boat is re-straightened. The software is the most recent version. One of the units is a week old. The buoy marker is a good idea, it was suggested by one of the guys that last time out, and will put it to work just to give us as much running room as possible. I'll see if google earth shows an aerial view.

[GregHind]

Hi Skiboyny, still worth checking what the software version number is and telling me. I don't assume anything. Unless you've seen it is actually 8.0.5r then please check it.

My suggestion would be to use the buoy. And slow down after you complete your pass. As you spin around the island, stay under engagement. Experiment about if you can disengage in time to properly re-engage at the marker buoy. Only reengage once the boat is straight.

I'm sure there is an answer, please let us know how you go.

 

Otherwise classic mode won't have this problem at all. Its still a nice pull.

[skiboyny]

Greg, it is 8.05 there isn't an island on the other side and we usually drop. Still a slight change in directions though. Aaron from Perfect Pass recommended the same thing not to engage until the boat is straight. We will add a buoy on the one end to give us as much straight running room as possible. I'm sure the system will run great ball times once we get our driving method modified. Just never had to worry with the Classic. Still believe this is worth the bother. I'll keep you posted.

[Andre]

Just skied my first ever 2 sets behind a Stargazer in RLX 2000.

All 4 other boats i ski daily are classic PP.

Well,it was a humbling experience even missing my opener at 22 off.The boat just ran away from me at 4 leaving me in the drink.

I'm not a ''light on the line skier''.More the opposite.

Did anyone had to adapt their skiing when moving from classic to Stargazer and what did you concentrate on at first?

Why can i ski good with perfect times with PP classic and so poorly behind Stargazer?

[DanE]

@Andre You have just experienced what a poorly setup Stargazer will do to your skiing.

Since you´re not a light skier, this is what happens.

Seen other heavy skiers on the forum making Stargazer work though, read @Razorskier1 but I think his boat was newer with DBW.

Remedy? Lurk the Stargazer/Zbox threads, go through the troubleshooting and add Zbox, it makes a world of difference.

[GregHind]

@andre, either update to the latest software or switch that boat to classic mode when you ski. Its very easy to swap back and forth between classic and stargazer.

[Chef23]

@Andre there must be an issue with the way Stargazer is set up. I ski regularly behind Stargazer and PerfectPass classic at my home site and ski pretty much the same behind each of them. I am a big guy at 220 pounds and don't notice a difference. We get good times behind my Stargazer boat even on a short setup. My boat is a 2002 Malibu with a throttle cable which are tougher to tune than the DBW boats and it still works fine.

 

I don't have Zbox though and I have no idea which version of the Stargazer software is on my boat. It is at least 3 years old though.

[skiboyny]

Hey Greg here is a google earth shot of the site. The shots were taken in late fall, so I photoshoped the course and boat path in. Just so you have an idea. If the wind ever stops blowing here I'll give some of the ideas a try.

[GregHind]

@skiboyny that boat path is going to be a problem I think.

 

Stargazer constantly recalibrates itself based on conditions. That turn will force it to think the boat is going slow. It will then increase the baseline rpm which will cause the problems you are having. Stargazer is a rpm overlay system which is calibrated by gps. That re calibration isn't instant.

 

Do you have zbox? It may help I think. May even cure it. Z box reacts much quicker to boat speed changes and aim to fix them immediately

 

Can you ski around the other side of the island?

 

I think most important is to get straight before engaging.

[skiboyny]

Greg I can't ski around the island it's very shallow. No z-box. I am hesitant to invest in it if I can't get stargazer to work proper. I'm going to try to get the skier up and keep it under the set point until after the turn. I'm running decent ball times all considered. By the time the boat reaches the gate it's pretty close to right even with the speed up in the turn. Makes the pull out inconsistent though.Never had a zero off boat on that site. Would it offer the same challenges?

[rockdog]

@skiboyny‌ is that a portable course? Wouldn't it be easiest to move the course a bit to straighten your ends up? I understand you may have it close to that shore for wind protection or whatever, but it's not much good like that if your boat won't run through it properly.

[GregHind]

Zero off is amazingly fast to lock in speed. When you change from 36 to 34 then engine doesn't 'slow' down it drops immediately. I don't think Zero would have any problems with your site.

 

That said, I don't think Z box would have any problems with your site either. The whole purpose of Z box is to use accelerometers to detect speed changes and adjust immediately. It is very fast to make changes. I'm fairly confident that Z box would solve your issue. You already have Z box compatible software so you could borrow a Z box or buy one with an option to return it.

 

 

[skiboyny]

@rockdog It is a floating course. We can move the island side out, the other side is actually pined on shore. The water depth on that side is 60ft deep. It was a valley that was flooded to make the lake years ago. Trees and stuff still down there. If you drop an anchor you probably aren't getting it back. @GregHind I'll see how trying to engage when straight works then explore the z-box route.

[skiboyny]

Finally got a chance to try the suggestions over this weekend on both boats (carburated, and efi). Engaging the system once the boat is straight on get's a good speed at the 55s. The one ball times on both boats was pretty consistently fast.(between .02 and .04) Still a bit of a rodeo ride it seems at times. I have to believe if the one ball time is off, it starts a chain event with the rest that isn't pleasant to ski behind. We did try to lower the background setting from factory setting 8 to 3 and it really had no affect. Is possible that @Ed_Obermeier methods would work even with the newest software update? This has been a tough summer for us to try and get good water. Spending lots of time thinking about speed controls instead of skiing. Not good! I still believe this system can work.

[Mateo_Vargas]

I have the new software on a '95 MC 190 LT1 1:1 and also trying to dial in Zbox. Was getting +or- .01 everywhere except for 3 to 4 ball was consistently -.03. Yesterday I raised the baseline to where I could get actuals in classic mode and now good everywhere except getting hot 1 balls like skiboyny. -.02 to -.04 so my next move I might lower the baseline a little.

 

One time when I was adjusting the background settings I got into a screen I hadn't seen before. It had KX and a Zbox factor. Does anyone know how to get to this screen?

[DanE]

Try to tweak one ball time with crew adjust, when you set baseline make sure proper crew weight is set.

Also when tweaking background settings remember that the ball 1 setting refers to buoy #2. Lowering ball 1 setting will not slow down the boat to buoy #1, only to buoy #2 and that will get you in to a world of trouble. Get baseline settings exact in CAL mode with the proper crew weight, if you want to get a slower time for buoy #1 lower crew setting or go down a notch in weight setting (from normal to light for example).

[alex38]

i lowered baselines and pull skier up, pull throttle back and creep rpms up to re engage, gates, and pulls are 95% wicked good, 1 ball times can be funky, but getting better

[skiboyny]

@DanE I set the baselines with zero in the crew weight. Same people in the boat as there were when we ran cal mode. Lowering the crew weight would decrese the rpm I would think. Does that mean lowering the baseline will slow the ball one time? Thanks for clearing up the ball one background setting. I did take it to mean a movement in that setting would alter the ball one speed. That's how the description in the book reads. They say to go down about 5 to slow. Yet the factory setting is 8. Not much room to adjust for a slow ball.@alex38 how many rpm did you lower by? Did that affect the ball 1 times?

[alex38]

I believe I lowered by 50. Next time I feel like wasting a bunch of gas I'm gonna re do it. My 1 balls are anywhere from 1.74 to 1.77

[Mateo_Vargas]

I've reread the documentation and still think 1 ball means 1 ball and they assume that we know to gauge this to look at the 0 segment. I also noticed they say to calibrate the baselines without a skier and I did it with one which explains why the boat feels it's coming in hot. So my baseline is too high.

[Ed_Obermeier]

If you want to affect the one ball times you adjust the pre-gate setting. I.e. PP says the standard setting for PG is 70 (@ 55K). On my '05 RLXI I have it set at 35 and my one ball times are always within 0.01 or so. BTW my system is mechanical. If you're talking about a DBW system I have no idea. All the DBW PPSG systems I've been in touch with work perfectly with minimal tweaking.

 

From the paperwork I got with my SG - Available Settings: Pre-gate - This controls the speed of the boat approaching the course. Stock values on Normal Setting is about 70. In the event your one ball times are a little slow increase this value by 10 or 20 points which speeds up the boat outside the course. If they are a little fast reduce this setting slightly.

 

This tells me that if your one ball times are hot you need to reduce the PG setting.

[Ed_Obermeier]

If you don't have this info maybe this will help.

[DanE]

@Ed_Obermeier‌ Zbox do not have a pregate setting.

@"Mateo Vargas"‌ "BALL1" in the background settings affects time to buoy #2 period! Background settings terminology stems from all buoy timing chart where buoy #1 is referred to as 0 (as you pointed out yourself)buoy #2 is called Ball 1 etc..

@skiboyny‌ Set the correct baselines in CAL mode with correct crew weight entered. Try this for background setting BALL1 30. BALL3 40. B4 TO EXIT 30. Don't freak out over the increase in Ball 1 setting, monitor closely what happens with times @buoy 2 and 4, those are the buoys that BALL 1 and 3 settings affect and getting these right will make your sytem work perfect.

If you calibrate baselines with 0 crew it totally explains why you're coming in hot.

[skiboyny]

@Ed_Obermier the new software is very different the pre-gate setting is gone. The current literature is very different then you version. Seems like it would have been easier to work out with the version you have. @DanE will give that a try. They also said in the literature that it didn't really matter if the crew weight was at zero. They did say if you were a high line skier (and I'm not!) to add crew weight. I was thinking totally wrong about the background settings and your right based on the all buoy charts ball 1 is time to buoy 2 ball 3 time to buoy 4. Understanding how something works is the only way to fix it. The way I did baselines with a crew of 0 crew weight is wrong, because when one person goes out to ski, the crew weight has essentially dropped requiring less RPM! The light bulb just went off. I have to say on the whole this system is not very intuitive! Thanks everyone for your help. I will put these ideas to work and report back.

[skiboyny]

post moved

 

 

[skiboyny]

@alex38 If you also set up baselines without a crew weight, lowering your base line by 50 would explain why it's working better. The missing crew out skiing. See my above post.....

[alex38]

Slight hijack or comparison here but my 34.2 normal bg settings are pregate: .30 1ball: 20 and ball 3: 23. We definitely come in hot and have fast 1's, could a tweak to these help that?

[Ed_Obermeier]

FWIW @alex38 my settings are - PG 25, 1 ball 18, 3 ball 20. This on an '05 RLXI with 340 hp Monsoon engine. My baseline for 34.2 is 3100 rpm. All my segments are almost always within 0.02. I leave my crew weight at a constant 350 lbs, never change it.

[alex38]

Interesting that pg number on mine IS a decimal, is yours? However, I am an 02 SN with a 5.0 (smallish engine) my only issue is the 1ball times being -.03ish