OB4 - Another question/discussion

[DonT]

So as it get's closer to Christmas - and building the Christmas wish list I would like to initiate yet another discussion on OB4.

 

Basically I'm looking for Baller's experiences with a single OB4 system - as I use a RTP. I'm looking at protecting these 54 YO knees - especially on the OTF falls where the back foot comes out - but front may be a bit problematic.

[Chef23]

I think @MattP uses a single OB4.

[MattP]

@DonT I have been using the OB4 System with an RTP since May and with about 100 sets on the system. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.

[DonT]

@MattP - I fully understand that with a dual boot system the "leverage" that will be available to force the release - have you had any issues with a single boot system having the leverage to release - and still protect from injuries? Sort of comes back to the age old discussion of a dual boot system being safer.

-

[MattP]

@DonT I have not had any issues having the leverage to release from the ski. I firmly believe that the OB4 is the safest system on the market for RTP & Double boot skiers. I have released many times and there has not been a situation that I wish the system had released.

You can read my full review here. Keep the questions coming I will answer to the best of my abilities.

[Than_Bogan]

If I were a RTP guy, I would consider it pretty much an emergency to change to OB4 front boot. When you have an inherently asymmetric system like that, you really really want a front boot that can release in every possible direction. If that rear foot slips out (a big concern with my very narrow foot), the ski is a giant lever arm ready to shred your knee. Only a system that can release rotationally has any hope to protect you.

 

@DonT I don't think I understand your concern re leverage. The release is triggered by force -- the very thing that can harm you. If the force isn't there, then it's true it won't release, but nor do you need it to.

[oldjeep]

So, the concern with not releasing is this a hard boot thing? Never had a soft binding that refused to let go when needed. So far every hard boot release system that I've seen pictures of looks like ancient snow ski bindings that you wouldn't even be allowed to have serviced any more.

[DonT]

@Than_Bogan - I guess the concern is more about "Is the force necessary to release too high?" or perhaps stated another way "Is the binding release tension low enough to release before injury yet avoid the premature ejection scenario if there is too low a tension.

[Than_Bogan]

@DonT It just has to be set correctly. The key fact is that force that can harm you is much more than the force that you experience on a normal pass. This is clearly true because normal passes don't harm you!

 

@oldjeep I have seen many, many cases of failed release from rubber, including massive damage like torn achilles and one case of a shredded hamstring (and more). I personally twisted the heck out of my ankle in a rubber boot, taking almost a year for 100% recovery.

NO BINDING SYSTEM WILL PREVENT ALL INJURY, but I moved from rubber to OB4 because I believe it is substantially safer. Rubber can only release out the top and has several "choke points" on the way out where your ankle can get stuck and transfer force somewhere else.

If you're talking about a truly floppy soft boot, I might buy it, although it still has more limited release directions.

[MattP]

@DonT the binding tension is set to a tension that is low enough to release before energy and high enough to prevent a pre-release. It takes a few sets to figure out what tension works for you. The system is shipped with instructions on how to do this as well as what setting it is set from the factory. You can also dry land test the system.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoDtN1FrjXk&list=UU9WhArKmKdHjnGnc2ZnsydA

[ozski]

How does this system differ from the Connelly system? The release part that is.

[Than_Bogan]

@ozski The genius of it is that each boot can independently release in every direction, including from the heel of the front foot (huge for saving achilles) or the toe of the rear foot (less important). A shockingly simple (and therefore ingeniously elegant!) little ramp allows the force of the pin to also control the release from the middle points.

 

Each boot can independently release in rotation as well. Only direction it can't release is through the ski.

 

MUCH easier to explain with one in hand... But if you go to ob4systems.com and look at some of the videos you can get the idea.

[DonT]

This system actually reminds me of the old (think late '70s) Besser ski binding

 

[pgmoore]

I'm totally sold on OB4 and think it looks like an awesome system. But my only concern is this: @Than_Bogan‌ 's write up makes the set up process seem a bit daunting. I'm no expert when it comes to ski set up. And frankly, where I live, there aren't many experts around. Is this bleeding edge product really something I can deal with on my own?

[MattP]

@pgmoore‌ the setup is easy and painless. @Than_Bogan‌ thinks way too much.

[DonT]

Thanks for all the info - went to the local roller blade shop today to determine the best boot size. Now to get the finance manager to get the order in for Christmas - and then stand the wait until the water is a reasonable temp.

[Zman]

@oldjeep‌ What @Than_Bogan‌ said about soft rubber boots. Back in 2012 there were about 7 or 8 ballers who had achilles tendon ruptures, and a number of these were in rubber, including me. Certainly there is not system that will prevent all injuries - not with snow skiing either - but, I do think I would have had a better chance of not having the ATR if I had an OB4 system back then.

[Deanoski]

DonT the first proto type of this system we used Besser releases. then came the fogman system with one plate.

A one plate system puts alot of extra stress on the front foot in a OTF fall.

 

[mmosley899]

@DonT @MattP skied a couple of tournament PB's on his OB4 System single boot release this year! And Jazmine Mosley has set state trick records with her single boot release! I tricked and jumped at Nationals with single boot release systems. They work better than any other release system on the market! But I'm a little biased!

[drewski32]

What is the OB4 like compared to Reflex when it comes to performance???

[mmosley899]

@drewski I have had many performances into 39off on the OB4 system. I doubt that it will limit anyone's potential, but like any change in boots or bindings the skier must become accustom to and comfortable with the system. The freedom from worry about injury from binding release can go a long way toward allowing you to push your performance level higher!

[Than_Bogan]

I've been meaning to write exactly that last sentence! After I had a couple of releases that made me super-confident in the system, I've noticed myself able to ski just a hair more aggressively in certain situations. Bonus side effect!

[MattP]

@drewski32‌ I used the Reflex system for 4 years before switching to the OB4 system. I did not feel a drop in performance, though I still use my Reflex shell. I set tournament PBs in Slalom & Trick this year on the OB4. I will echo what @mmosley899‌ said The OB4 system allowed me to push my self harder in practice & tournaments because I knew how the system would release when I needed it to. I would say that the OB4 performes on the same level when compared to the control of the Reflex, but the safety of the release is far greater than that of the Reflex.

[BlueSki]

I can affirm @MattP's final statement, I am testing the iWalk Free crutch as a consequence of my now-sold Reflex.

[gsm_peter]

After my ski buddy's surgery I have started to consider OB4.....

However, do not feel I need or even like the hardshell boots.

Is there any experience from using type Vectors, Strada, Vapor or similar with OB4?

Speculations also welcome.

 

[MattP]

@JJVDMZN‌ son uses the Strada bindings with the system. Possibly he could give you some insight @gsm_peter‌

[Than_Bogan]

Just to be clear, one of the OB4 options (which is the one I use) is pretty darn soft. The general level of control is about the same as my rubber D3 T-Factors. But I definitely say if you CAN use your current boots on the system, then start there.

[JJVDMZN]

@gsm_peter, yes I'm using the Vapor Boots and OB4 and I really love the setup, I have had two falls crossing the wake and in both cases both boots released at the same time and the boots stayed on my feet.

I will never go back to the bindings I had.

It is true what @mmosley899 & @Than_Bogan says you do get more confident on you ski and it's a lot easier pushing your limits.

Just remember to tighten the Boots as tight as possible, it must stay on your feet when you fall.

At 47 years of age I'm a beginner when it gets to running the course and at my (or maybe anybody's) age injuries is not a good idea.

The 3 systems for me, my son and wife (RTP) cost an arm and a leg in South African Rand but it is really worth it.

 

 

 

 

[mmosley899]

@gsm_peter if you use a boot that has stretchy laces, you should replace the laces with non-stretchy ones. The semi-soft boot we offer is something else to consider, that is what @Than_Bogan and I have been riding all summer.

[JJVDMZN]

Missed the 'son' part in MattP's post.

 

My son (14yo) is using the strada boots, he did not feel any difference after fitting them to the OB4 system.

 

So in my family:

Wife uses OB4 with Roxa front and RTP, she is :smiley:

Son uses OB4 with Strada Boots, he is :smiley:

and I'm using OB4 with Vapor Boots and even after paying for all I'm :smiley:

[BlueSki]

My son put OB4s on his Christmas list.

[drewski32]

IF I decide to make the switch to OB4, I will definitely set it up with my reflex boot. I have a few concerns about it, though:

 

1. On the reflex the boot is not very thick on bottom, and you are only pushing through a fairly thin plate. On OB4, you push through a boot, a thick rail, and then a plate. I personally like to be able to feel the ski under my feet, which is why I love hardshells. Is there a significant loss of feeling because of the rail?

2. Rear binding height: Has anyone experimented with elevating their RTP footbed so that their feet sit evenly? This could affect skier balance.

3. Unless I misunderstand how the system is set up, it appears that the release end of the plate is NOT attached to the ski. Is it possible to pre-release or have other complications from the plate being pulled up?

[MattP]

@drewski32‌

1. Yes the Reflex boot is not very thick on the bottom but with the Tnut and washers provided with the OB4 setup the load is distributed along the shell ( I can post pics if need be). I have not had an issue with stress on my shell. The Roxa shell that OB4 sells is thicker along the bottom than the Reflex shell and will deal with the potential stress better. I agree with wanting to feel the ski under my feet. I did not notice a change in ski feel after my switch from Reflex to OB4.

 

2. Check out my thread Leveling Out Binding Height . Which came up after my switch to OB4. A number of us have leveled out our RTPs this season with great success.

 

3. The release at the end of the plate will need to be attached to the ski either through tapping inserts int your ski or using or 3M VBH tape (Note: HO & Connelly front inserts fit the OB4 release insert position). I have made an adaptor plate so I did not have to tap inserts or have to change out my 3M tape every time I wanted to adjust my bindings.

[Than_Bogan]

@MattP I forgot about that adapter plate! That was a great idea. If you get a chance, you should share that here (or as a new thread).

[drewski32]

@Mattp much appreciated

[MattP]

So Christmas is quickly approaching @BlueSki‌ @DonT‌ are there some new binding releases under the tree?

[DonT]

Not sure - we decided on a last min trip to visit my son and his wife in the Army currently stationed in Hawaii - might wait for a touch - of course, it's ski season here in Utah. Today was awesome up there.

[BlueSki]

Not until spring. This kid is growing too fast for me to speculate on boot size. Only a few months, however. There are gloves under the tree and a new handle from Brenda that is for a quickly approaching birthday.

[skiep]

What do you do on a Goode ski (can't drill front of ski ) ahead of the factory inserts void warrenty?

[Than_Bogan]

@skiep Duallock is one option. See my guide linked from several places. Lemme know if can't find it.

[MattP]

@skiep‌ If there are factory inserts in a Goode you can use 3M Auto Trim tape to hold down the release. I did this for the season and it worked really well. I'm currently working on a type of adapter plate but it needs some testing.