Goode collapsable buoys

[cragginshred]

Anyone using these? The owners at my lake agreed to let us try them. Will they last a season (6 full months)? Any draw backs? I know too many skiers who have blown out their ankles or achilles hitting buoys.

[cragginshred]

http://store.goode.com/bubblebuoy/

[lpskier]

In my view, it is easier, cheaper and just as "safe" to fill your existing turn balls half way full with water.

[Wish]

+1 water filled. Not sure it can be called safer but free is certainly cheaper. And they are certainly safer then just air filled.

[Ed_Johnson]

I put Bubble Buoys on our Lake 5 years a go...Much better than water filled, which we used before, after I sprained my ankle hitting one...Several of us have run over or hit these Bubble Buoys several times without any problems..4 of the 6 are original buoys, 2 were run over by Wally's...So much cheaper than a trip to the ER...I repaint ours every 6 months and they look like new.

[Wish]

To make my water filled a little "safer" I make it so they are just a little larger and run them a little lower in the water (more water inside). This gives less ramp affect and allows for easier displacement in moving out of the way if hit.

[EricKelley]

I run them and really like how they ski. It changes how you think at 38 and 39. If I'm late I can still try to get around the buoy with less fear. Similar to the way downhill snow skiers go right through their gates. They are definitely more maintainence and I would not use them on public water. The color fastness is not near as good as the Wally's. Like Ed said you can paint them. I flip them inside out as well. I also have to replace the underwater flotation from time to time. I just use the small size noodles from Walmart.

[Gloersen]

Anecdotal but - 6 weeks after installing "bubble buoys", 2 members at Victory blew out their Achilles striking them (within 2 weeks of each other). They were replaced with turn softs, fwiw

[disland]

the trick to Bubble Buoys is you have to burp them periodically to make sure the air pressure doesnt build up, otherwise they get firm which defeats the purpose. Ours have held up better than I thought they would

[9400]

Water filled will move easier in the wind and are strongly discouraged (maybe even prohibited) in a record tournament. Wally buoys are a pretty good alternate choice that we have been using.

[Wish]

Hmmmm.... Move in wind... That may have more to do with your set up. With a float course (mine anyway) they do not move any more the air filled do. My left hand gate ball is still air filled. In fact, water filled moves less. White caps and boat waves roll over the top of them vs the up and down of an air filled staying on top of the surface. I can see an anchored ball course (non float course) become a problem if water level changes...even a couple inches. Air filled you will notice water going down as more of the buoy apears above the water line. With the water filled it is far less noticeable as the ball already is half under water without anything holding it down and a slack line can be the result. With a slack line they will move with wind or any disturbance.

 

Nothing against Goode bouys. Great innovation and thinking outside the box....or ball I guess. If you can afford them and deal with the maintenance (burping) have at them. But whatever you do, get rid of those air filled.

[9400]

Just passing on what came straight from the AWSA technical co-chair. Since he's setting up or approving most of the big tournament courses, I tend to use what he tells me. Never had a concern about water filled prior to my discussion with him, but what he explained made sense to me (about them being neutral buoyant). Since we were running E,L,R tournaments we switched them out.

[Wish]

They cannot or should not be neutral bouyent. If they are, they have to much water. There still has to be enough air in them to apply some pull down from underneath. For example. My air filled needed the equivalent of a half cynder block to hold half way under water. There is enough air in the water filled that only a small red brick with the 3 big holes is needed. Should be enough air in them that it requires a small amount of weight to hold them down at the appropriate level. But if left neutral, then yes, he is correct.

[9400]

Fair enough...again just passing along our discussion.

I thought they performed OK (partially filled with water). Given the options, we went with the Wallybuoy and have been pleased with the results. Fairly maintenance free and performs well.

Didn't mean to imply that partially water filled wouldn't/couldn't work, more so to pass along information that came from what I consider a pretty good source and offer a pretty good alternative.

[mwetskier]

i think a lot guys dont understand how to actually do the ' water filled ' buoys so they dont really get the full safety benefit. we learned how to set them up from the guy who came up with the idea many years ago and i hit ours many times a summer with out injury and rarely falling.

[Chef23]

We ran Bubble Buoys for a year and they lasted the season (May-October) but they did require some attention to keep them floating straight and at the right level. We switched last year to Wally Sinkers and they were good, seemed to be as safe, easier to manage and cheaper. Given that we are on public water the cheaper and easier to manage was a benefit.

[MISkier]

We use the water filled buoys. I made an injector with an inflation needle in a garden sprayer to fill them halfway with water. I have hit them many times and still completed the pass. That would never happen with just air-filled, even if bungee tension keeps them taut/low. The water-filled is much safer, in my opinion. Plus, with water filled, you can get the buoy height/attitude much better with a floating course that has no weighting on the arms or anchor to the bottom. Otherwise, they tend to look like fishing bobbers and bounce your ski right out of the water when you hit them with only air inside. I think the ankle injury probability is less with the water-filled.

 

[Wish]

@9400 I'll agree that I to think it would be a rule for high end tournaments to not use water filled as the water to air and the way they are applied to a given course can vary.

 

@mwetskier please share your "...how to do..." knowledge. :-)

 

[disland]

I think there should be a rule that there be a video camera for each buoy and a GPS receiver for each to detect movement. We also need a Sr judge for each camera to ensure the GPS is working correctly and to log deviation for each pass. In some configurations and for world record purposes, we will need an additional Sr judge to watch the other judges as a back up. Oh and all those judges need a hotel room and golf cart.

[DW]

@craigginshred: Yes, a course I frequent used the bubble buoys for a season then basically switched back to standard buoys. The reason was threefold - maintenance was much more significant than standard (which are retained via rubber surgical tubing + zip ties), a tendency to end up lopsided after being whacked by a skier and ultimately replacement cost. Also, they seem more challenging to get to the correct height and are sensitive to sub buoys or attachment height (need more Z distance for installation). They also seemed to get pulled off sub's a little more frequently although I think that also related to attachment rope and age of the attachment rope (older=worse).

 

From a use POV, I really like the bubble buoys, you can hit then and proceed w/o concern, they seem to simply emit a low thud but don't cause much if any issue other than a very slight tug. Regular buoys tend to eject my ski out of the water, so much prefer the bubble buoy. The other course I use employs water filled buoys (created by yours truly) which are pretty darn close to bubbles when you hit them, not quite as good but very close. Made the same water injecting device as MI Skier (Home Depot weed sprayer + basketball needle tip) and I filled them with 50-60% water, made the diameter on the small side of tolerance and retain with surgical tubing. Easy to do, can be done to any conventional buoy and very cheap + much safer than air filled in my experience. I don't see any issue on displacement caused by wind, can be retained with ample tension in the line to the sub buoy.

 

Note: I have noticed that the gate doesn't seem to need a water filled buoy, the difference in load / path seems to diffuse any need for an easily displaced buoy, although it couldn't hurt. Comments?

[Edbrazil]

 

One thing that I don't understand is why/whether buoys that are partly water-filled work. Maybe

an explanation has been posted, along with something resembling tests/experience. A buoy

that is about half-filled with water would weigh of the order of 10X a buoy that is just air-filled.

Wouldn't that be a harder hit and not as easily bunted out of the way? Although, I can see that

for floating courses, you don't want buoys bobbing around and floating high.

[DW]

@Ed: You are depressing the buoy in to the water or downward when you hit it, a water filled buoy has less buoyancy (since it has less air contained within) and therefore less resistance to depression in to the water.

[GOODESkier]

Our river course could never run goode bouys due to so many issues with river flow, changing water levels, idiots, and so much more......., so I fill 1/2 and 1/2 water and air. With that said, I would rather ski the goode power bouys. THEY ROCK! on a private site, easy to handle.

 

The other side to the filled 1/2 and 1/2 is that yes, they displace easier, BUT they are harder than just air. So, depending on the hit, it may not be safer in my head anyways.

[Wish]

@Edbrazil you are correct if both were hanging from the rafters and you tried to displace them with a piñata stick. But what @DW says has been my experience for yrs now. You can hardly push an air filled fully under water with 2 fingers. Peice of cake to do this to a water filled. The only way in my mind that this water filled would be worse is if you somehow hit the ball with the tip of your ski below the water line and somehow hitting it straight on or going under the ball. In that case, it would possibly not displace as easy. I just don't see that as happening anywhere near as often as a ski running it over and displacing it downward. The injuries I've heard of with Googe buoys has been related to a ski hitting structures below the waterline. So perhaps both are not that great for this kind of strike. Nothing is 100% safe accept staying on the dock.

[mwetskier]

@Wish -my friend who has tested the ' water filled ' buoys extensively determined that it takes a bit less than half the force to sink or displace a wf buoy as it does to sink or displace the same size all -air buoy. @Edbrazil points out the obvious counter intuitive aspect because it doesnt readily spring to mind that water weighs nothing when its submerged in water. the above pic of a buoy filling device was probably inspired by my friends version that he published many years ago -maybe on this forum?

 

on a floating course you dont have to do much to keep the buoys from moving around in the wind since the entire course can move too and the weight of the arms is constantly correcting for any wind movement. on a fixed course the best results are achieved by ignoring the usual fixed -anchor process. in a typical fixed course there is a sub buoy 2 feet or more below the surface and then a long elastic band to the buoy. also the elastic tension is much higher on the buoy because of the added force needed to pull the ball down to half way.

 

with a water filled buoy course this arrangement wont work as well because with the long elastic tether at a much lighter pull down load the ball wont come back on center as quickly. the solution is to move the sub buoy up to just 6 inches or so below the skier ball and use a short non stretching tether. any reason you can think of for a stretchy tether is served equally well by the tendency of the water filled buoys to displace and sink so easily *except* for adjusting to varying water levels. in the case of water lever the buoys will have to be adjusted below the sub buoy by the @Edbrazil finger trap method.

 

the amount of water in the buoy should be less than half -about 40 % or so depending on how deep you want them to sit. any thing above half full will introduce work against the safety thing since the water will now have to flow from a wider diameter to a smaller one during side ways displacement. that will increase the force needed to move the buoy out of the way which we dont want. we typically fill our buoys to a little over 3/4 inches below equator and shoot for a diameter of just under 8 inches.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Here is the file I got years ago from Thomas Wayne (the guy who invented/sells the Arm Guard handle guard) for converting a half gallon sprayer to add water to your buoys. He gave me permission at that time to post it, I assume that permission still exists. Anyway props to TW for the idea.

[Wish]

@mwetskier the first paragraph is what I have experienced over the years as to what little weight is needed to pull them down. Your last paragraph was unknown to me and an important key aspect to keeping them safe and to keep in mind. Fortunately I've filled mine about the same. I guessed correctly. One other nifty item that helps was @Phil made a scale system to keep them filled exactly the same. I believe it is a PVC pipe hanging by it's center. Water filled buoy gets attached to one end and a soon to be filled at the other end. Fill buoy till PVC pipe levels. You are assured same exact amount or water in each and every buoy which can be a pain to regulate without a scale. Slick. He also came up with a compressed water injector that fills them in seconds at the push of a button. With the scale system, it works best to convert a cheap garden sprayer with a hose so you do not have to hold the sprayer up to the ball the whole time.

[GroovyGrant]

A couple of ideas for water filling:

1. When doing a whole course worth, use a weed sprayer with an electric demand pump--like one you set on back of an ATV with battery terminal clips. Make your needle assembly by putting a basketball needle into an air nozzle (like you would use with an air compressor to blow dust around your shop). Get a male thread brass barb fitting and hose clamp into the sprayer line. Screw a female air chuck onto that to hook your nozzle/needle to. You can half-fill each ball in seconds with this. Keep a second air nozzle with just a rubber tip (no needle) on it for filling the boat guides with air or water if you use the ling ones that have a bigger port/no needle orifice. These go really fast like that.

2. For maintenance and replacements, boatside, get a 1 or 2 gallon pump sprayer-- the kind with a hose and wand. Cut the wand off the hose and clamp in the barb/chuck/nozzle fitting per above. Dip your sprayer in the lake to get your water, pump it up, and fill a ball in little more time than with the electric pump. Then, to finish filling with air, just turn your sprayer upside down so the internal dip tube is out of the water and all you get is air. You can also use without water for fast air filling, if that's all you need. That way, us public-water skiers can just keep a box of flat balls in the boat so the ski locker isn't jammed with enough inflated balls to get us through a weekend of wallies.

 

Can't post a picture of my setup today, as it's in the trunk of the 'Bu in the slip but I'll try to remember to do it this weekend.

[mwetskier]

@Wish -i like the balance beam type device -my kind of home made gizmo for sure. we have a permanent fill -to mark on our little converted garden sprayer that we determined by trial and error to get all the buoys the same. we balance the new ones in a small flower pot and pump a lot of air into the sprayer. do other stuff while their filling up and once all the water is in the air finishes up real fast.

[Wish]

@mwetskier same here.. fill water to line in sprayer, pump about 10 or so times and walk away. Come back and bam..done...most of the time.

 

[cragginshred]

Wow a lot of info, thanks fellas! The very least is to put water in the buoys as described!

[mwetskier]

@cragginshred -another good idea is to over inflate new buoys and let them sit that way for a while then let the air back out. its a extra step thats little bit of a pain but it stretches them out so that the 60 percent of the air you have in them when water filled still leaves you a very soft buoy.

[boarditup]

@mwetskier +1 on your procedure. I've been doing that for years. Also, use tap water with waterbed conditioner in it. Your buoys will stay more consistent as bacteria will not decay over time and increase the pressure inside the buoy. Bleach does not work as well.

[DW]

@mwetskier: can you explain your thoughts on not filling more than 50% of the buoy with water relating to displacement? No matter what, you are displacing a sphere in any direction therefore any cut through the ball no matter which displacement vector will be a circle, I don't think the amount of water has any bearing on movement resistance laterally. That is simply a surface area resistance effect as buoyancy is not an issue in a lateral displacement. You can set the height of an air filled buoy to be very low, just as you can with a water filled buoy, line tension controls that.

[skidawg]

Get the bubble bouys, don't ask questions, we are headed into our 3rd season

[eleeski]

@DW Technically you are correct. But perhaps the biggest safety effect comes from being able to use a small amount of tension and a weaker bungee to get the desired buoy height. A buoy that is over half submerged will roll the ski over the top instead of impacting the ski (requiring the buoy to move or displace). You are also correct that over 50% water should work but in my lake that doesn't use enough bungee tension to keep the course accurate in a wind.

 

@skidawg has it right. Just get the bubble buoys, maintain them and enjoy the safest and psychologically least threatening buoys. I love skiing bubble buoy courses!

 

Eric

[mwetskier]

@DW & @eleeski -it was explained to me that the amount of water *can* have a great deal of bearing on lateral resistance. when the ski is struck from the side the water inside it easily rolls up on the inner surface of the buoy toward the point of impact -or i should say it *seems* to do that. what really happens is the hollow shell containing mostly air plus some water shoves easily out of the way because the internal water can simply flow up the side of the buoy wall as the buoy and air are shoved side ways.

 

The more water in the buoy the less the buoy can be displaced before it becomes necessary to move the mass of the internal water as well. when you hit that thresh hold the resistance to displacement of the entire system -buoy + air + water -jumps up dramatically. in most cases the buoy is either sunk under the ski or shoved far enough out of the way before the water has to be physically displaced too. but obviously the less water in the buoy the higher the thresh hold of movement is before that happens.

 

if the internal water line is too high anything above the ' equator ' will have to be displaced with the buoy because rolling up the side of the sphere does not allow that extra water to ' stay behind ' -so the mass of what ever water is above the mid line will be added to the amount of mass the ski must instantly displace on impact with the buoy. That extra mass of water *must* be displaced with the buoy and internal air because it has no place else to go.

 

clear as mud? its not intuitive -wasnt for me any way -and i had to have explained a few times to get it but now that i do it makes perfect sense.

[eleeski]

While your explanation makes some sense, tag a buoy (even water filled) just right and you will fall and possibly get hurt.

 

Tag a bubble buoy and there will be endless debate here as to whether you should score the buoy. I can avoid falling after hitting a bubble buoy a lot easier than any conventional buoy.

 

But I'm cheap and not yet healthy enough to slalom seriously so I have water filled buoys for now.

 

Eric

[mwetskier]

@eleeski -there have been reports right on this very forum of people getting hurt hitting bubble buoys. its irresponsible to suggest that you cant possibly get hurt if you just buy bubble buoys not even goode claims that. i personally took one of the hardest face plants of my life hitting a barely floating paper plate so i know a skier can get hurt -hurt bad even -hitting *any* floating object but of all the options water filled buoys are a pretty good one and a very affordable solution for those skiers who dont personally own 2 or 3 lakes.

[eleeski]

@mwetskier Fair enough. You can get hurt hitting a bubble buoy. But there have been a few threads with multiple pictures dissecting running over bubble buoys. I'm not sure that's possible with conventional buoys. Personally I feel bubble buoys are safer and I certainly have less fear approaching one late and narrow.

 

But as noted, I'm not so terrified of getting injured by the buoy that I have them in my lake. (I do water fill mine.) But if @cragginshred has the budget to go with bubble buoys I recommend he uses them.

 

Eric

[nzwaterski]

When we filed or buoys with water we used a cheap foot pump submersed in a large bucket of water one person pumping the other fitting the needle and a third keeping the bucket topped up. Worked really well instead of the pump pumping air it was pumping water.

[bishop8950]

I have appreciated Bubble Buoys several times as a skier in tournaments. The safety benefit is legit. We put them in our course and ran them all last season. We adjusted/burped/messed around with them only a few times all season. This was after 700hrs of boat time with tubes slamming them every weekend. The original 6 held up well also. We will continue to run them.

 

We spend the time to get the set up right. The right amount of downward pressure from the anchor line (we use bungee) to allow you to run little air in the buoy but tight enough the stayed put. If you fill them with air and run a really tight anchor line you loose some of the benefit.

 

I have skied water filled also. They seemed better than air filled. I will stay out of the physics debate on this.

[RAWSki]

Has anyone experimented with a none ball-buoy? I picturing a 6-8" diameter foam swim noodle?

Tied thru the middle top, since the sides are perpendicular to the water line I would think that the ski wouldn't climb up on top but push the marker either inside or outside the skis path.

[GregDavis]

If you keep buoys at recommended diameter, and recommended height, that is the safest, regardless of what kind of buoy you use. The danger comes if buoys are too high, even just a little too high, ski can get underneath, then you are talking possible major injury. Even if buoy is a bit large, if pulled down low, the ski will slip over the top of buoy. Problem is, some people just show up and ski, and don't take the time to snug buoys to safe and appropriate height.

[mwetskier]

@RAWSki -much has been discussed on this forum about using swim noodles for buoys and it seems several experimenters have found out some really nasty falls result when your fin slices into one.

[eleeski]

I sliced up a noodle into small strips and tied them together in a "flower" pattern the dimensions of a buoy. It was quite visible and painless to run over. It held up OK but noodles don't do that well in the sun. Worth further experimentation?

Eric

[GroovyGrant]

Anybody else have experience with noodles for buoys? On a floating course? Might be the ticket on public water. Guessing you would need a sub-buoy to keep the course floating.