Increased ethanol mandate - impact on boats

[MISkier]

I wonder what the impact will be on the towed water sports community: See this link

 

We can rarely buy pure 100% gas in Michigan now, even if we pay more. It's just not readily available and only marketed as "recreational fuel".

[oldjeep]

Shouldn't make any difference - really no reason you couldn't run E15 in just about any engine unless their fuel maps are really bad. We can get pure gas if we look around but haven't run anything but E10 in cars/boats/sleds for 15-20 years.

 

Now from an economic standpoint I've got a problem with it. Makes no sense to be turning food into fuel, if they want to concentrate on switchgrass or some other "weed" ethanol source then they could use CRP acres to grow a cash crop.

[A_B]

@MISkier - marathon and speedways

[Razorskier1]

can get pure gas nearby, but I don't go out of my way. I run gas through fast enough that I don't worry about the ethanol breaking down.

[Ed_Obermeier]

I always add Marine Stabil to my gas every time I fill my boat up. Don't have to worry about it that way. Even with premium fuel you don't know if you're getting ethanol in it (often not listed on the pump one way or the other) but I just assume it's there, treat for it, no worries.

[DaveD]

Obviously these politicians mandating the ethanol levels aren't Bourbon drinkers. @oldjeep is right on target.

[EFW]

@DaveD You're right

Kennedys drank scotch

[EricKelley]

My 2011 SN manual says no more than E10 as well as my twin Mercury Racing 700 SCI manuals. This problem with this mandate is not about tune and ecm fuel maps. It is the fact that ethanol deteriorates rubber in fuel systems and also is corrosive to some metals in tanks and fuel lines. The greater the concentration, the more damage will occur. As mentioned before are the issues with precipitate of water contaminated ethanol.

Science is science. If you are a boater, democrat or republican, this is going to be very expensive for us all.

[A_B]

@oldjeep maybe they can create hemp-gas. Everyone will be more laid back and road rage will disappear...

[oldjeep]

@"Eric Kelley" that is a whole lot of nonsense. Anything with ethanol approved lines isn't going to care about a little more. The rice burner guys and some drag racers run e85 in non e85 cars by doing little more than putting in bigger injectors, and changing the tune. My buddy runs e85 in a 69 chevelle with a marine 502 in it, he had to rejet the carb but that was about it for physical changes.

 

The reason the manuals all say E10 max is because that is all they are required to test with, and the consumer isn't asking for an E15 certified vehicle so why bother.

 

For all the talk of water contaminated ethanol, or gas going bad in a few months - I've never seen it in 20 years of having it in MN.

[EricKelley]

@oldjeep thats fine if all your fuel system compoents are designed for erhanol which they are not. You ought to hug some trees and burn some e85 in your boat and prove me wrong.

[oldjeep]

@"Eric Kelley" - has nothing to do with hugging trees, from an economic and even pollution standpoint the way we create ethanol in the US is at best a wash in those terms and likely not even that.

 

There are 2 ethanol discussions - the economic/political/environmental one, which is where you decide if it makes sense to create and use. For the most part I think it doesn't make sense if you are using corn.

 

The other discussion is the practical/mechanical one where all these wild claims keep floating around about how ethanol is going to destroy anything you put it in and it spontaneously creates water. That is the discussion we are having here.

 

My fuel system components in my 2012 boat are designed for ethanol, as is pretty much any piece of power equipment made in the last 10-20 years depending on how long it took the mfg to start using the right parts. My cylinder index is around 200, and it all runs on E10 with no issues. I store over 100 gallons of gas for 6 months at a time in summer and winter equipment. The oldest stuff I currently own is 2 stroke (1988 snowblower, 20ish year old weedwacker). The 70 triumph that my wife used to run around in was fine with E10 as well (replaced the little bit of rubber line which was rotted anyways). The only issue I've ever had is when running old stuff that ran off pure gas for a long time that the ethanol cleans out the fuel system and clogs a couple fuel filters. Anything that is old enough to have non ethanol fuel lines is old enough where they should have been replaced by now just due to age.

[A_B]

E85 develops more hp if the engine timing is advanced. My Denali is rated for 40+ more hp on ethanol. That's why racers run it. I assume.

The only problem is fuel system corrosion if not fitted properly. The downside is that mpg drops more than the price.

[oldjeep]

Yes, that is why racers run it. One of the problems though is that the mix is pretty inconsistent. My buddy with the drag car was finding 65%-80% ethanol in his e85 using some test kits. For a FI car - not a huge deal but in a carb car it makes it hard to create consistent power.

 

On the mileage, I think the rule is that the E85 has to be about 20% cheaper to break even on the lost mileage. Haven't noticed in a while what it is selling for, but regular 87 octane E10 was only $1.95 this morning so its hard to make a huge cost justification unless the price of gas goes way up again.

[BobH]

The Gasoline Gallon Equivalent (GGE) is 1.4 gallons of E85 to 1 gallon of regular unleaded. That comes from industry standard tables. Using that as the metric, E85 should be priced at least 29% lower than regular unleaded. At $2/gallon for regular unleaded, E85 should be priced at $1.42 to get the same efficiency to price ratio. So there is definitely an economic downside to E85 unless you happen to be the farmer selling the corn, or the plants processing the corn into liquid ethanol, or the politician with a finger in the pie. I see zero tractors in the fields used to plant and harvest corn using anything other than diesel. Farmers are smart.

 

On the pollution side of the equation, gallon for gallon, E85 (according to our federal govmint who we should all trust) produces 19% less pollution than regular unleaded. However, look back at the Gasoline Gallon Equivalent that shows you push 40% more E85 through the engine than regular unleaded. If you look at the truth and facts, gasahol is not a good solution, especially that made from corn. A good solution is drill baby drill and stop sending our money to countries who hate us and use the money to fund terrorism.

[oldjeep]

@BobH - well stated. You left out one more group that is making $$$ from Ethanol - the snake oil purveyors who convince people to buy bottles of "ethanol treatment" which adds thimbles full of what already exists in much larger quantities in a quality gasoline. MSDS's are a wonderful thing ;)

[A_B]

Yep, typical lobbyist legislation, we use more ethanol to get where we are going than the cost and pollution savings. Force us to use more so those campaign donors prosper!

[EricKelley]

Phase separation of ethanol....Fact

Ethanol more corrosive...... Fact

Shelf life of E10 90 days... Fact

Cost/BTU of E10 Higher...... Fact

AV gas no ethanol..... Fact

E15 will not be approved for

Sales to Marinas........ Fact

Higher taxes because of

government ethanol subsidies. Fact

I guess we should just all be okay with more ethanol.

[oldjeep]

Shelf life of E10 90 days...

 

Experience would indicate otherwise. I've got around 40 gallons in the boat, boat will next be run in April and be fine as it is every year. Snow blower started up a couple days ago with last marches gas.

 

I don't think anyone here is fighting in favor of ethanol, but e15 isn't going to be the end of the world. I'd put it in anything I own without a concern - and maybe need to do a mixture adjustment on a couple small engines.

[A_B]

I know Toro Snow Blower carbs had a real issue with Ethanol. Corroded the float needle and they leaked gas all over everyone's garage floors..

 

Link

[oldjeep]

Funny thing is, I remember that since I was doing work for Toro at the time.

Looks like one model/one year that they used some bad materials (38,000 units of a 2010 model year). My 1988 Toro hasn't had any issues with it - I've got the 1988 equivalent of that one they listed.

 

Seems likely the same thing could have happened with other briggs powered non toro equipment since they don't make their own motors, unless the carb was a toro only piece. All over saving money on a sub $1 carb needle ;)

[A_B]

I only know because a guy down the street was throwing out his Toro, which looked basically new, so I asked what he wanted for it, and he said nothing. He said it leaked gas all over.

 

I threw it in the truck and did some research, and was outside the recall, so bought a new carb and belt for $50 and I have a great-running snow blower, that I only run real gas in.

 

 

[E_T]

I only run rec 90 and boy does that motor sing!

[gregy]

I've been having a lot problems with my small engines with the alcohol gas. If I don't use them regularly its clogging up the carbs. I tried stabil and it didn't seem to help. My neighbor told me he has been using AV fuel in all his small engines. Haven't tried it yet. I have a compressor right now that not working with carb issues. I have the carb pulled apart on my onan generator that set for 3 months without use. The carb is so gunked up that I may end up having to replace it. It had stabil in the fuel. Just before thanksgiving I went to mow the yard and my push mower would not start. It was new last summer with a honda commercial engine. It had set for about 2 months. I was able to get it going by draining the fuel and putting new fuel with some seafoam cleaner. After about 30 minutes of use it was back to normal.

 

I found a reference on the internet that a station about 30 mins away was selling non alcohol gas. If they are still selling it I going to start using it. If not I might try using the AV fuel. I've been using the premixed nonalcoholic fuel in my weed trimmers and have no issues since. Its expensive but well worth it saves me the headache.

 

 

[oldjeep]

The gunk in the carbs - is it red?

[gregy]

@oldjeep Mostly black but some red in places. All the small passages are completely stopped up. Been soaking it and trying to blow it out.

[oldjeep]

If you are seeing red - make sure you are not using old stabil. There is a formula of the old stuff that turns to a gelatin consistency when used with E10. It would have to be pretty old.

[EricKelley]

Precipitate of ethanol is pink.

[DW]

Power gain from ethanol fuels is either running slightly leaner and getting better power because mixture was rich to begin with -or- the carb or intake is airflow limited and you are introducing an oxygenated fuel which will provide more mixture to burn. Common trick in limited racing classes to get a bit more power.

[LeonL]

Here's some other "facts". I know a lawn care equipment dealer. I forget right now the brand of string trimmers he sells, but, the manufacturer sent him a kit to check ethanol levels. Their guidelines were, if a customer comes in with engine problems and the fuel checks out greater then 10% alcohol deny warranty claims. Also fact about all drag racers using alcohol that I know....after the race they flush all the alcohol from the system with gasoline. Also to use alcohol in a race car the jetting must go up by about 40% and fuel consumption increase by that amount. The stuff is so corrosive that national pipelines will not allow it in their systems. It must be trucked.

[LeonL]

Oops! Too late to edit. My previous should say 140% not 40%. However by burning that much extra fuel you car is faster, but we're not talking about increasing power here.

[oldjeep]

Yup, which is also why you used to hear so many people screaming that they melted pistons in their chainsaw/snowblower/whatever - because if you don't adjust your mixture screw in some of them they are running really lean on E10. Stihl is the worst at this, their saws are set way too lean from the factory and it is even worse if you run them on E10 without increasing the low and high speed mixture screws.

[Dano]

My boat '89 centurion falcon with Indmar 351. Pump here in Canada says it contains up to 10% ethanol. Fuel lines are original as is carb with no adjustments. Runs perfectly

[LeonL]

You can buy a test kit to determine ethanol content for $10-$12. Just search around the Internet. Simple test tube with graduations. Add water to one line,,add gas to another line, shake vigorously, let stand for a few minutes and read the % ethanol.

[gregy]

@LeonL @oldjeep any experience with AV fuel. Would it work or would it be better fine non alcohol gas for the small engines and 2 - cycles.

[oldjeep]

No idea. I've got no issues running e10 in any of the dozens of small 2&4 stroke engines I have. Isn't Av gas full of lead, or not all of it?

[E_T]

AV? That would burn the heck out of s pistion

[eleeski]

I ran cargas in my 182 (legally, of course with the STC). I could tell when there was alcohol in the fuel (I was supposed to check but I might have missed a couple times) because the performance was down and the engine ran cooler. The MTBE fuel was better than avgas and alcohol blended cargas but has been unavailable for a while. Pure cargas (no ethanol or any other additives for emissions was best. The 182 was rated for 87 octane fuel. Cargas meets that specification.

 

Avgas is 100 octane. Lead is used to get this rating. So avgas does have added lead. I don't know if the catalytic converters on new boats are damaged by lead but automotive catalytic converters certainly are. Don't run avgas in your car unless it is very old. In small non catalytic motors or old boats, avgas should work fine with just some degradation in performance. Newer computer controlled boats may have problems with avgas due to lead fouling.

 

Avgas's high octane would make it much harder to damage a piston. The burn is cooler with avgas. High performance aircraft engines are possible because avgas allows higher compression without internal damage.

 

Lead is a nasty pollutant. But the aircraft engines have been unable to come up with an alternative. Fortunately, the avgas amounts that get burned are small enough to avoid any environmental damage.

 

Avgas is designed to be very stable. It is not uncommon for an airplane to sit for months or even years and be expected to run safely. Any degradation of fuel could create a significant safety hazard.

 

My 210 uses avgas. I've had spark plugs and fuel injectors get lead fouled. I have procedures to minimize the fouling but it is a known problem. Add the pollution concerns and avgas is not a wonder fuel.

 

Avgas is produced in small batches. It must be kept separated from all other fuels because of the lead contamination. This makes it unreasonably expensive. That alone makes it a poor choice compared to the other fuel options.

 

Eric

[Razorskier1]

had one problem with E10 in a small outboard. Didn't winterize it but put it in warm storage. Next spring it was running very poorly. Took it to a mechanic who said the ethanol left in the engine had eaten away at the injectors.

 

I run E10 in my snowblower, ATV, new 25hp outboard and my Prostar. Haven't had issues.

[Horton]

@oldjeep click here to see why I edited your original post

 

@A_B I edited one of yours also. See the above link.

[oldjeep]

@Horton - there is no link button on the mobile site ;)

[gsm_peter]

All fuel in Sweden contains alcohol - at least the last 20 years.

The alcohol content increases during the summer.

Sweden has approx 1 000 000 boats and the majority is motor driven.

I have checked with some mechanics and they told me most engines has no problems except for some early 70ths outboard carburetors that does erode faster with alcohol.

I use fuel stabilization additive during the winter but that is mostly to prohibit the fuel to separate into ? hartz (? type something i varnish).

 

[Zman]

I use E10 in my 2007 Bu, my truck, my wife's car, mower, pressure washer, edger, trimmer, chain saw, and more. Never any issues in any of them related to the alcohol what so ever. And, engines run cleaner, much cleaner than in past years with pure gasoline. Worse fuel issue I have had is with a couple small engines because they sit idle so long and I don't always use Stabil or drain fuel and some varnish forms - from the gas, not alcohol - and, quick, simple fix to clean the needle valve in carb. Most engine manufacturers have long ago adopted to the use of E10. My F-150 3.5 EcoBoost is good for up to E15 and I would have no concern using it if it were available.

[supersonicus]

This is a nice option if you don't mind the expense. Distributors will deliver.

 

Sunoco Optima

[MISkier]

It says Optima is not street legal and is for racing or off road use. I guess my boat would be considered "off road".

[supersonicus]

Sure thing, its low octane "95" basically for rec vehicles.

[Alberto Soares]

Here in Brazil for the Last 25 years we only had ethanol gas, it varied from 15 to 25%, now we are even higher at 27.5%. Most of the cars are flex fuel and can run 100% ethanol.

 

I guess I have put more than 5000 hours on my boats, never had any problem other than a few gas pumps, my current 2010 Nautique 200/6.0 lts. has about 1200 hours, running as new, only changed oil and filters.

[ALPJr]

Used mid 89 octane for 10 seasons with no problems. Added Stabil in the winter and a bottle of STP gas mid summer.