Boot Performance

[dchristman]

@thager integrated pain relief magnets?

[aupatking]

@Fehlindra I'm still in the black cuff, and that will likely change before spring, but I got the same FM liner a month or so ago. My reasoning, like yours was to take up slack room in the top of the boot. I'm also running the top strap so loose it barely, but always stays latched. It is giving me a little mobility the strap tightened to get rid of slop with the thin liner did not. So far, I'm not betting that I'll use that setup for more than a set or two of testing. I'm hoping I'm wrong. I've attached one picture of a homemade balance trainer I made after breaking my ankle. That's my daughter in "testing mode". What that little balance board/Reflex boot told me that I otherwise would not have put a lot of thought in, is the amount of forefoot control I was not using/had lost with the rigid upper. @adamhcaldwell I'm in search of my heat gun. Thank you for the great info sir

 

[dchristman]

hmmmmm.....

 

 

(warning: for display purposes only. Using this setup may result in injury or death)

[wilecoyote]

@dchristman, every time I try something "inovative" using magnets, it generally fails LOL. My idea in this case was was to use a bunch of rare earth ball bearings in detentes with the ferrous bits in the binding plate and the ski, which is why I thought @thager was thinking something similar. I think the ball bearing shape would hold the lateral force mechanically and the magnetic force would hold the plate down to the ski. The main problem I can foresee with this is that when the binding did release you would likely loose a few if not all of the ball bearings. And yes, magnets always stick to everything you don't want them to.

[dchristman]

@wileycoyote I see... sort of like a ball grid array IC chip with magnets instead of solder balls - interesting idea.

[Adam Caldwell]

To re-iterate the importance of proper ankle mobility in your bindings, WATCH THIS VIDEO. Ankle mobility is not only beneficial for performance, its necessary for your body to be aligned to properly support the loads from the boat. If you have, or have had, back issues water skiing, then it might be time to take a look at your bindings and if they allow for adequate ankle flexion and mobility.

 

This video is probably one of the best mechanical presentations of the dynamic body movements showing relationship between flexion of ankles, knees and hips for various body types and arrangements.

 

Limited ankle flexion directly limits knee flexion which directly governs the angle of the hips. If your ankle cant flex, then your hips must flex more, and put more strain on the low back. Its not wonder that as higher cuffed and stiffer bindings have evolved, more and more people develop back problems.

 

 

You will want to watch the whole thing, the specific point on the ankle is around the 2:05

[Fehlindra]

At 2:45 he mention the wedge effect under heel that brings your heavy butt forward that probably change the COM ffd as well. ive trimmed the supershell quite much for free forward movement not Adams Texas chainsaw massacre MOD but anyway i like it. Found out that if I placed the toe box flat under the toe bar what is an good thing, it tilt the boot forward as in the video. What i need now is an wedge under the white heel stabilizer and raise the release arms or some combination that raise both the release arms and the supershell.

 

[Fehlindra]

And here is an picture of what cause some resistance and hinder the uppercuff from move freely its the inside edge of the uppercuff take it rly easy with the razor or powertool if you decide to operate your dear hard shell. something similar what @adamhcaldwell said what comes off does not go back.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Fehlindra - The lower part of the shell just above the pivot can get cut down as well in that area to free up the forward mobility.

 

The elevating the heels, one or both can be a game changer. It definitely shifts the COM much further forward. In alpine skiing they call it the "ramp angle" of the foot I believe. It only takes a few degrees of incline to make a massive difference.

[Wish]

This was so interesting for me. I've been ramping rollerblade boots on skis one way or another since 2001. Not because I knew any of this science. In looking at all inline skate boots and how all of them have ramp angle when part of a skate, it just seemed normal to get the same ramp angle when applied to a ski. And let's be honest, all the ski boot bindings are just inline skate boots with ramp angle designed into them. Why are they all designed that way if it wasnt nessisary?Companies have just chosen to lay them flat on a ski and not think twice. @Fehlindra to me, your pic with that elevated heal makes the boot look normal to the ski. Now I've added the easy forward movement of the cuffs mod. It's funny that I get sore in different core muscles now and how both legs fatigue evenly vs my back leg giving out first. Plus the pass feels more athletic. Strange description I know but it does feel that way compared the the ankle cast feel I had before with cuffs that required load to move forward.

 

[DefectiveDave]

My opinion is that raising the heels alone doesn't accomplish much other than pushing the knees forward a bit. I think this because effectively you put your front and rear feet on different planes. Having tried it before, to me it feels as though I readily fall onto my back foot from the higher plane of the front foot. Likewise, I might describe it as having to shift my COM uphill to get weight onto the front foot. I've tried to illustrate this in the image below:

 

 

If the goal is to get our weight forward by adjusting our boot inclination, my opinion is that the better approach is to ensure both feet are on the same plane. Raising the heels is a component of this, but you also need to raise the rear foot to get it in-plane. Here is an illustration of this concept:

 

 

Those images are both simple biomechanical illustrations, but the femur and fibula linkages are a constant length in both drawings. I also kept the front fibula angle constant in order to illustrate the point that the COM, as approximated by the hip connector, moves forward slightly. I haven't tested this concept yet, but it's definitely on my wacky idea list.

 

Cool video @adamhcaldwell, keep em' coming!

[Wish]

@DefectiveDave I agree. I've always had the rear boot at a higher ramp angle then the front in order to get my back knee in behind the front. More heal lift required in the rear as well as more ankle flex to do this. I've always worn the back cuff a little looser as well. Again not knowing the science, it just seemed more of a common sence thing to do. But, I think with a toe kick or a rear boot system that allows adequate heal lift (Goode rear boot or R-style for example) it's not as necessary. Plus this ramp angle stuff makes me taller.

[Adam Caldwell]

@DefectiveDave , I agree completely. The double heel lift vs the common foot plane definitely has some questions to be answered. I skied with a front heel lift for a couple weeks and know exactly what you mean. Then for several months last year, I put my back foot up on a .25" platform above my front. I liked it for a while.... but it still seemed to have its drawbacks, which I'm now thinking is because it drove my back leg/hip into a position that my front leg was not able to cooperate with ideally making the finish of my toe-side turn a bit funky.

 

Since our leg swings in an arc around the hip joint, it would make sense to me that the difference in elevation of the rear heel/toe might be a function of leg length based on the arc the heel would travel on.

 

If memory serves me correctly, JB ran a small double heel lift in the Fogmans, but one of the very few I can think of who did. The older reflex system would also prop you heel up about .125", which, from my experience, has a significant impact.

 

For anyone going to play with this...The COM shift that can be accomplished with very small heel lift is significant. Be well aware you first couple sets, and bring the tools in the boat as you may definitely need to relocate bindings.

 

[DefectiveDave]

@adamhcaldwell ,

 

I've also tried the rear foot lift by itself for probably half of the season before last. I liked it at first, but gradually grew to dislike it over time. I actually picked up some buoys when I got rid of the thing.

 

My theory at the time was that it made it more difficult to keep weight on my front foot during dynamic motions due to the increased relative length of my rear leg. I also ended up spraining my rear ankle many times for the same reason; well that and bad technique, but it definitely exacerbated the issue.

 

Thinking about it with a fresh set of eyes and going back to the analogy above/my opinions, it puts the feet on different planes. However, in this case we are stepping down to the front foot, relatively speaking. This makes it easier to shift COM more forward, but it forces the back leg/hip into a kind of funky non-ideal relationship as you said. I'm now thinking of it like going down stairs or running down a hill, sure gravity helps you out and does a lot of work (by definition W=F*ds), but it feels awkward and less efficient compared to walking or running on flat ground. So shifting weight dynamically when necessary may be more difficult/awkward, just a thought.

 

Maybe it's a premature conclusion, but based on this conversation I feel that we want geometric advantage which helps us shift our COM forward as much as possible/necessary, but while maintaining an athletic/neutral relationship between your feet, legs, and hips.

[Deanoski]

I disagree I work with lots of high end snow skier nor am level Racers and we reduce ramp in

the boot board and take out the ramp or limit the ramp to 2mm difference from toe to heel in the binding.

the more ramp the more heel pressure you have and the move the skiers sits back or squats ( but back) that why You have to heat up and flatten the reflex boot sole! with a stock reflex it toe high and heel low. don't try in reinvent the wheel just do as what Adam does and flatten the boot problem solved.

[JohnN]

+1 to @Deanoski. Thinking about it from the feet up, the more ramp angle you have the further forward your COM must be to put pressure on the ball of the foot which in turn affects how quickly you can pressure the ball of the foot. Many times this puts a skier in an uncomfortably forward position to be able to pressure the front of the ski, counterintuitively leading to a net back position to feel secure. Finding the right ramp angle makes a huge difference, and is different for each person's physique and possibly for different skis. The skimoves.me guy has it pegged at around 2.7 degrees for snow skiers, I wonder what it is for water skiers (front boot)?

[Adam Caldwell]

 

@Deanoski - I would have to think, especially after watching the body mechanics video above, that heel lift may be appropriate for someone who has a femur/tibia proportion that does not allow them to get their knee forward over the ball of the foot. Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns..over 3 mm may be enough to push it too far, and like you said, cause the pressure distribution to focus on the heel more-so then the ball of the foot.

 

Regardless, the flat bottom in the shell is important in all conditions.

 

Great point @JohnN!

 

Ramp ankle is a completely different animal then ankle flex and mobility. So, were ramp angles developed to work in tandem with the fixed shank angles of the hard snowski boot to control COM position? If so, it would lead me to believe that if we wanted full range of motion in the ankle that we wouldn't want any ramp angle at all.

 

Say we put both feet on a giant wedge ( like @DefectiveDave's second picture), and it was pushing an extreme, say 30 degrees. That would put your COM almost ahead of the ideal position (relative to the ski) at all times, and likely force you to move the boots way back, which would completely change the skis rotational characteristics when banked up and sliding through a turn. No beuno. I think the "ideal" case is far closer to a zero angle, but I need to learn more before I can say for certain. Again, I think ramp angle might only be necessary for certain body proportions.

 

 

[Deanoski]

Agreed if a person has little to no dorsiflexion in the ankle is the only time I would put a heel lift in a water ski or snow ski boot.

[Drago]

@Deanoski is correct. I think waterskiers benefit with nearly zero ramp angle, depending of course on physical limitations

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell, what an awesome video...i have 3mm risers under the heals of my ski boots to compensate for the all reasons talked about in the video...i now have much larger dynamic range of flexion & extension without any fore/aft movement of my COM....

I will now take another look at increasing the fore/aft range on my supershell without placing my achillies in jeopardy with an OTF release....

[DefectiveDave]

@adamhcaldwell and @Deanoski ,

 

I've actually been working to flatten the bottom of the reflex shell with a heat gun these past two hours with virtually zero luck even slightly changing the shape. Current process is:

 

1) Heat bottom and sides of reflex near bottom (only where curved)

2) Clamp between two pieces of wood with C-Clamps

3) Wait

 

I'd say it generally takes me around 20-30 seconds between steps 1 and 2, so that might be my problem. I also worry that parts of the boot cool while I'm trying to heat the rest. It is a rather large curved area. Any tips to make this process go easier?

[Deanoski]

@DefectiveDave heat the bottom of the whole boot before its clamped you got it get it hot not just warm. you should be able to put a finger print in the plastic if it hot enough I heat them for 5-6 mins before clamping than 5-8 after on the side in the arch and toe area.

[Adam Caldwell]

The Supershells are a different plastic then the original, and will take a lot more work to get HOT. Must use a heat gun (not a hairdryer), and spend time till extremely soft as @Deanoski stated. I haven't been brave enough yet to put in the oven in fear of losing the geometry of the boot entirely. However, that may also be the best way to reform the shell volume to make the boot fit better overall.

[DefectiveDave]

@Deanoski and @adamhcaldwell ,

 

I do not have a supershell, but it sounds like I might not have been heating it long enough (I was heating maybe 1-2 minute max). I will try heating it 5-6 minutes as Deanoski suggested before attaching to the plate and then heating the sides as it sits.

 

I might also try to get a plate of aluminum for the bottom plate so that I can conduct some heat away from the sides to help keep the bottom of the boot warm as I heat it after clamping.

 

Thank you both for the input!

[Adam Caldwell]

@DefectiveDave you need to heat it long enough to see the sheen on the plastic change. It goes from a matte finish to almost a semi-gloss sheen. When you start seeing the sheen change, keep the heat gun moving along. Don't want to get too soft, but do need to see the plastic change state from solid to semi-solid, and that will be evident by the sheen where the heat source is directly pointing at.

[DefectiveDave]

@adamhcaldwell, @Deanoski, or anyone else,

 

Any clue what plastic the old white-cuff reflex binder uses? I can't even begin to guess as to the composition.

 

I'm wondering if boiling water would be enough to soften without melting the boot. That would make it easier to shape than a heat gun and wouldn't be as risky as throwing it in an oven. I would just try it, but I seriously doubt my wife would appreciate me using the cookware, haha. I want to figure out if it's even worth trying before I make the trip to town to get a new pan/pot.

[Adam Caldwell]

No clue.

[ktm300]

I am experimenting on a spare black Reflex shell. Will flatten it tonight. What is the best way to ensure that the flattened boot is secure in the horseshoe and that there is no slack? Tape seems too temporary and maintenance intense. Thanks

[Adam Caldwell]

Relocate the Horseshoe is one option. Other is to shorten the pilars that connects the horseshoe together.

 

[Chef23]

I think boiling water would probably soften it enough but it is going to take some time.

[Deanoski]

just take out the spacer of the horse shoe. they are 3.5 mm thick I have also used wiring shrink tubes around the bar. ( put them in place and hit them with the heat gun they shrink up look nice and are low maintance) Did this on a old shell after it was showing ware and getting loose up and down in the toe. you can stack them to get the thickness needed to take up slop.

[DefectiveDave]

@Deanoski,

 

Heating for longer did the trick, no need to try boiling in water. Thanks!

[FLeboeuf]

Deanoski, ignore my thumb down. I didnt click it on purpose. I dont know enough about bindings to agree or disagree on anything anyway :)

[adam]

If anyone has Adam's PDF on his reflex modifications, I would like a copy or a link to where I can download it. Thanks. Adam

[wtrskior]

I don't know if it's been mentioned already because I haven't read every post, but in alpine ski race training we always did some drills withe our upper cuffs completely loose. You don't have the same control but it teaches you to be strong and balanced over your skis. Being able to flex your foot/ankle is important in waterskiing as well. Great thread

[greghayes]

This has my vote for best thread of 2016. @Horton, the envelope please... "and the award goes to @adamhcaldwell."

 

I just had to replace my snow ski boots and my boot-fitter put a heel lift in to compensate for my lack of dorsiflexion. This triggered a thought about my COM in waterskiing and after reading this entire thread, I am going to try some heel lifts in my Reflex front boot ASAP. Rather than making slight fin adjustments, I can move my COM forward a few inches with a simple heel lift!

 

Any suggestions on good heel lifts that anyone has had good luck with? I am thinking that the water will break down the cork ones too quickly.

[Deanoski]

@greghayes duck tape 5-6 pieces will be a huge move before I heated the shell and flatten it out I used 4 strips of duct tape under the heel on my reflex

 

but with a flat sole shell there's no need for it.

 

way easier to move com forward with a flatten sole.

 

I wish some one would make a flat sole water ski hard shell the new Ho/ edge boot has more toe ramp them the Reflex. In my mind the wrong direction.

[greghayes]

I always knew duct tape was a solution to almost any problem. Thanks for the idea.

[skialex]

When you flatten your shell and remove the spacers you still end up with a gap between the toe bar and the front top of the shell.

I slip over the stainless steel horse shoe a piece of an 8mm level hose.

I do that anyway and with the non flattened shells, it protects the plastic and make my shell last to the end of the plastic's life.

[ozski]

Switched my 8YO son from a soft boot lace up (which I never let him tighten) to a higher wrap stiffer Wiley and his skiing instantly went down hill to the point where he could not turn the ski or even run the mini course. To be fair we tried two Wiley boots, one cut much lower but it was too small but he could ski on it pretty well until the cramps set in. He pretty much gave up coming to the lake so I put the old soft boot back on and convinced him to try it again, now he's back ripping up and down the full slalom course and making it look way too easy. Just to back up what @adamhcaldwell said at the start of the thread I saw my son go from confident to complete beginner just by changing the boots, his balance went away followed by his motivation to ski. Lesson learned.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

Yeah, I think that has happened to way more skiers then people realize. I wonder how many people shifted to hardshells at the same time ZO came out. Talk about a double whammy!