Terminology question: why heelside and toeside?

[TallSkinnyGuy]

I just did a search within BOS for another thread on this and didn't find one, so if there is one please feel free to just point me to it.

 

Can someone explain the logic behind calling the onside (aka good side) "heel side" and the offside (aka bad side) "toe side?" Is it just because wakeboarding has become more popular than slalom skiing and so we are trying to take their vocabulary to be cooler? I've seen this terminology used here on this forum and just saw it in the latest issue of Waterski magazine.

 

This terminology makes sense to me with wakeboarding and snowboarding. In sideways-stance sports you clearly have an edge where your toes are and the other edge is under your heels. Although the stance is the same in surfing they actually call it front side and back side since the wave is in front of your body on toe side and behind you on heel side.

 

But this terminology makes no sense to me in slalom skiing other than in wakeboarding the toe side is more awkward than heel side. That seems to be the only parallel to slalom skiing. The physical configuration of my feet on my slalom ski do not naturally allow me to understand what is meant by toe side or heel side.

[Horton]

When a right foot forward skier turns 246 the mechanics are vaguely similar to a heel side turn on a surfboard wakeboard other board. Your hips more naturally turn away from the center line like they would in those other sports.

[Jordan]

It is determined by your front foot.

Right foot fwd skiers. Good side is when turning right 2-4-6...

 

When a right foot fwd skier turns right, the ski tips away from the (big toe side) towards the heel side....I know it's not the clearest descriptor, but it is the accepted jargon.

 

When a right foot fwd skier turns left, or weak side, or toe side, the big toe on the front foot tips towards the water.

 

And reverse all of this for a left foot forward skier.

 

Hope that helps.

[andjules]

Is it just because wakeboarding has become more popular than slalom skiing and so we are trying to take their vocabulary to be cooler?

Essentially, yes.

[UWSkier]

And if you can't get your head around it with the front boot, think about a slightly pivoted rear boot.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

For those who misunderstood my original post -- I know what is being referred to by toe side and heel side. However, I only know the definitions because I have seen them used with the traditional descriptions (e.g. onside, offside). Toe side and heel side do not "naturally" make sense like the terms do in wakeboarding and other sideways-stance sports.

 

Based on the responses above, my follow-up question is why do we need another term (particularly one that physically doesn't make sense)? Why are the terms onside and offside or good side and bad side not enough?

 

I remember other threads in which there was discussion about using 15-off and something-off rather than actual rope length and how the length-off description is confusing (particularly to new people in the sport). At least there is a logical explanation for the length-off terminology that is purely slalom based. It appears that using "toe side" and "heel side" is just a desperate grab to be like the cool kids. I'm admittedly disappointed.

[Horton]

@TallSkinnyGuy I use heelside / toeside because it makes sense to me. No other reason. I mean WTF does "off side" mean. My toeside is my more technically correct turn. Maybe my good side is my bad side.

[dchristman]

How about we call it the Big Toe Turn (BTT) and the Little Toe Turn (LTT)? :D Heels should have nothing to do with it!

[Horton]

@dchristman I seriously considered a panda for your above comment

[dchristman]

@horton Great Toe Turn and Wee Toe Turn? There are so many better options than toe-side/heel-side. :)

[MISkier]

Heel side and toe side have been around more than 10 years and did not necessarily arrive in slalom skiing as a wakeboarding culture crossover.

 

Here is Wade Cox describing the terms in 2005. It is a good explanation and done in clear concepts.

 

[B_S]

Anybody who has ever strapped into a slalom ski knows their on side from their off side. No thought required. While I understand why some would reference heel side and toe side, it is not naturally intuitive when both feet are facing forward, and therefore it makes my feeble, overtaxed brain hurt every time I have to think about whether my on side is heel or toe! I guess I should spend more time wake boarding through the course...

[SkiJay]

@TallSkinnyGuy I totally get why you'd ask this question, and I prefer the old standard on/off-side terms myself. But in defense of using toe and heal-side, the use of on/off-side and good/bad-side makes little sense to the significant number of skiers who's off-side turns are actually their good-side turns.

[jimbrake]

Hi. I'm Jim. I'm just here to say that this terminology is bull... Thank you.

 

And it most certainly did arise during the swell of wakeboarding popularity. I don't care if they've been in use for over 10 years. I guaran (you know what) tee, no one used these terms to describe slalom turns before wakeboarding existed.

 

Yes, the way @Horton describes that "the mechanics are vaguely similar to a heel side turn on a surfboard wakeboard other board" is correct, but still.....

 

People, I implore you.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

Maybe it would have been better if someone had started the terminology of "inside" and "outside" turns -- if you are RFF then when turning from left to right your front leg would be inside your back leg relative to the boat wake and when turning from right to left your front leg would be outside of your back leg relative to the wake. I would have preferred this change over stealing jargon from wakeboarding or creating jargon that doesn't have a logical foundation.

 

Regardless, at least I have enough wakeboarding experience to be able to convert the terms in my head when somebody uses toe and heel in a slalom reference. Unfortunately, the conversion process is still somewhat laborious for me.

[BRY]

Toe side and heel side makes no sense in slalom, particularly if referenced to the front foot. Someone may rotate their front foot, but I've never seen it. Wakeboard/snowboard terminology, waterski slalom predates both.

So, since front foot square fore/aft on the ski then toe side would be an OTF and heel side and OTB.

[boarditup]

Heel side and toe side have been used in slalom since I started in the '70's. Essentially, HS and TS are skateboarding and surfing terminology that carried over from one sport to the next. It does have everything to do with your front foot - same as virtually every other board sport - and slalom is just another board sport. We are just riding a highly specialized board over the water at planning speeds.

 

[UWSkier]

I was hanging ten on my toeside this morning. I don't know about you guys...

[OldboyII]

When I hear "Heelside" my brain reacts much faster than when I hear "Onside".

Heelside for me is a mental image, whereas onside is just a verbal term. Cannot do anything with it....

[chris55]

Toe side and heel side are hurting my old brain and on-side, off-side are a no brainer, I agree totally. And if I have to translate that in french (my mother tongue) it is even weirder. Every time I hear toe side .....blablabla I have to think at least 30 sec before knowing wich side they are talking about.

[One_Ski]

The toes of my front foot are in the middle of my ski in my onside turn and in my offside turn. The heel of my front foot is the same. I'm with you guys, this 'toeside, heelside' stuff does not seem logical.

[jimbrake]

I know exactly what someone is referring to when they say "heelside" or "toeside". That's not the problem. I've been skating, surfing, water skiing, and snow skiing since the way back. That, plus I'm from California, where we decide what the rest of the country will say when it comes to extreme board sports terminology. We didn't decide to say "heelside" or "toeside" for water skiing until July of 2000 and it was all because we had to share space with the boarders at a few events. We (the skiers) were all like "dude, how come all the chicks are hanging around with the boarders?" So then we all go "Hey ladies. Check out this sweet heelside spray."

 

 

[BRY]

@jimbrake Only explanation so for that makes any sense!

[OldboyII]

With all understanding that foot position is always the same,

this looks for me as a heelside

And this looks as toeside

:)

 

 

[TallSkinnyGuy]

@OldboyII If you showed those pictures to someone who is moderately familiar with slalom skiing but has not heard heelside and toeside terms used in slalom skiing, could they tell you which was which? I don't think so.

 

If you showed them pictures of a wakeboarder making turns on either side of the wake and asked them to identify a toeside turn and a heelside turn, they could accurately identify them even if they had never heard of wakeboarding before.

[Horton]

Yea Wade Cox sure has sold out to wakeboarding. On the other hand his coaching in this video scares me.

[OldboyII]

@TallSkinnyGuy

Certainly it is no logic in heelside/toeside applied to skiing, though onside/offside has no logic either.

It is just a matter of agreement how we call turn in order to understand each other. Isn't it?

 

I came from wakeboarding, therefore heel/toe makes a sense for me - the physics and body position have some similarity both for ski and wake. Heelside/offside ring a bell. It helps me. I do not like"bad side" - because it kills my hope. And..... my "good side" is not good :D

[lcgordon]

My question why in the video did wade tell you to just sit down? That seems completely wrong?

[andjules]

though onside/offside has no logic either

In the end, we need to use some term, and onside/offside seems to have gained enough acceptance, while not sharing the disadvantages of the other two widely-understood pairs of terms: 'heelside'/'toeside' (only makes sense in a 'side stance' sport like wake/snow/skateboarding or surfing; our toes and heels are always pointing forward!) or 'good side'/'bad side' (psychologically discouraging and not always accurate depending on your technique strengths and weaknesses). But one way or another, we need to acknowledge the inherent asymmetry of slalom skiing.

[Fast351]

Hips open/closed to the boat.

 

 

 

[OldboyII]

6xBeer Pack will make this issue a lot easier ))

[bbirlew]

How about a slight twist on another board sport term: Frontside and Backside with frontside relating to the side where your front foot is on the inside of the turn (1,3,5 for lefties) and backside the side where your back foot is on the inside.

 

In wakeboarding fs/bs relate to spin directions and are distinct from heelside/toeside but we can ignore that difference.

[OldboyII]

@Fast351

Hips open/closed to the boat.

Bingo!

This is exactly how we call it in Russia: open turn & closed turn

[MISkier]

I say we call the various sides as follows:

 

135LFF

135RFF

246LFF

246RFF

 

No connotations of good, bad, on, off or anything to do with toes, heels or other "crossover" terminology.

[UWSkier]

135R

135G

 

Regular and goofy.

[boarditup]

Slalom geeks.... Just ride.

[Horton]

This is getting stupider and stupider

[Jordan]

Words exist only to communicate...if you know what the terms mean; then mission accomplished.

 

A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet!

[jimbrake]

@horton - this is exactly how threads like this are supposed to go.

 

[Jdubs]

Heel side is going backwards and toe-side is going forward.

 

[TallSkinnyGuy]

I really didn't intend for this thread to get stupid. I had previously figured the heelside and toeside terminology was only being used on this forum until I saw it printed in Waterski magazine, which made me think there might be some logical reason for the terms that I didn't understand.

 

It now appears that the terms simply came from wakeboarding, but -- considering some of the responses on this thread -- have not been universally adopted in slalom skiing. I also now appreciate that some people don't like using the more traditional terms of onside/offside or good side/bad side due to some logical reasons, and that perhaps this had some influence on introducing a new set of terms.

 

I do wish slalom skiing had universally accepted and logically developed terms for each turn side -- terms that I could explain to someone new in the sport without having to say "these terms came from wakeboarding and don't make any sense in slalom, but that's what people use."

 

There was a lengthy thread a while ago about using actual length of rope vs. feet-off terminology to describe rope length. The common complaint was that the "feet-off" system is hard for newcomers to understand and thereby makes our sport more unreachable or harder to grasp, enjoy and appreciate. But now it seems that we are doing that again by developing (some would say "stealing") jargon that is not logical for the sport.

[Horton]

@TallSkinnyGuy just get over it and move on

[Bookm_dano]

OK...so what's important is that we have terms that everyone understands, even if they aren't intuitively obvious. When I first got some professional coaching from real Slalom skiers, I regressed to my surfer days and referred to front side and backside turns....the coaches looked at me like I was speaking Klingon...toeside and heelside is probably better...

However, my biggest mistake turned out to be referring to my wife's right foot forward stance as 'goofy foot'

[Fast351]

Not to open another can of worms, but I'm going to anyway. If you are right foot dominant, what foot should you have forward? Does it matter? I know I tried to switch several years ago because someone said "your dominant foot should be doing the steering, which on a ski is your front foot" but after trying for a month it still felt really weird so I just abandoned it.

[andjules]

@Fast351 the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind.

But it may also be a matter of how you define being right/left foot dominant.

If you're relaxed/unsuspecting when I come up behind you and push you, you'll reflexively put one foot ahead to steady yourself. You could argue that the one that stays planted is your "dominant" foot, but most of consider the one you step to to be your "dominant" foot. Have someone try that test on you. Typically, the one you moved is the one you'll use as your front foot in skiing.

[B_S]

Best just to accept that some use these silly terms and move on. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that West Coasters HATE IT when the rest of us don't adopt their jargon! :#