Tipping in the turn

[cragginshred]

At my shortest line length I tend to as Brooks calls it 'tipping' or tip my torso to the inside at the last minute while apexing on the offside turn.

Apart from the obvious of 'stand tall going into the turn' advice and 'back shoulder pressure all the way out to the ball', what do you suggest?

Last Sunday I was in colder faster water but still managed to get a PB the second set with 3 passes in a row at -28... a PB, despite the tipping. This was on my Radar Vapor Pro which really gets that tip down off the apex!

******Factor 1 seemed to be new faster water instead of the muddy lake I am used to, and likely pushing the ski too hard in the apex. More time on this lake to get the rhythm of the water seems to be a likely key.

 

Thanks,

Don

 

 

[eleeski]

Tipping 15% is normal.

[RazorRoss3]

I'd say two things

1) think about either raising your inside shoulder, or pushing your outside shoulder down to keep your shoulders level as you finish the turn.

2) when you reach make sure your reach has a slight forward component so that the handle is a couple inches in front of your hips.

 

Keeping the inside shoulder up/outside shoulder down will keep your head and shoulders up and level rather than dipping in.

 

Keeping the handle a little ahead of you creates a situation where when you turn you are already connected to a tight line and can move in behind the handle with ease. If the handle is beside you then you have to fall backwards before you can connect and that move to get behind the handle can cause you to tip in as well.

[wtrskior]

I agree with razorross, need to think inside shoulder high.

 

also, something that has helped me is keeping your head and eyes level. Your body goes where your head goes. This also true in that you want the ski to be leading your body around the buoy not your head. If you watchs most of the best skiers their ski then body has already changed direction past apex, while their head is still level and often looking down course.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Keep it simple. Try keeping your eyes level and shoulders facing down course.

 

https://goo.gl/uj047R

[jimbrake]

...and to add to what @Bruce_Butterfield said - start doing that before and as you begin your pullout, then as you make your turn for the gate, then as you move through your edge change out to #1, then coming into the apex, then as you ski back to the handle. Level head and shoulders and vision needs to be established from the start.

[mikegile]

I agree with keeping the inside shoulder up. I almost think of keeping it up and leading with it all the way across the wake.

 

Another one that helps me is driving my hips not only forward, but down into the bouy. This creates angulation and keeps the ski driving. Makes it almost impossible to drop the shoulder.

[mikegile]

This is my weakness too.

[cragginshred]

I like keeping it simple! I generally only think about 2 things to focus on going into a set. Shoulders level seems easier that head level. I have thought about the shnitz Hat trick to get feedback as to where my heads at, otherwise I am not too sure if its level or not.

 

 

Shoulders open down course seems more straight forward and easier to monitor for me.

[jimbrake]

I often find one thing to focus on being too much. That's asking a lot.

[Lovell]

I do the same thing

I try to think outside shoulder back

[bko]

1. Activate your outside lat muscle (Latissimus dorsi muscle) in order to keep the shoulders level

2. get a stiffer boot - so you can get the ski on edge while staying more upright throughout the turn (a cuff too soft requires more body lean to acquire a proper ski edge which throws you off balance more easily)

[LeonL]

Here's something that works for some people, as far as keeping your head level. As you apex the turn look for the next buoy out in front of the boat. If you're looking for something in particular most likely you will look at it with your head level.

[Horton]

@Lovell if I understand what you are saying ... I think this is a huge mistake. Outside shoulder back often leads to more weight on your back foot.

 

[So_I_Ski]

I am in agreement with the first two commentators, Razor and Wtrskior. I would stress thinking of the head level over the shoulders simply because the tipping is essentially the shoulder drop so just thinking of that more may not help. If you have never tried to level your head though, it will be a real eye opener and is one move that will prevent or greatly restrict the shoulder drop if you can pull it off.

 

Now since you have specified that it is an onside problem, we have a guy in our group that does the very same thing. And we have been trying to help him use his lower body more to make that turn rather than tipping in. The key to that is to think of sitting on the ball or kinking which is dropping the inside hip down while leaving the torso as level as possible. That style of onside turn is prominent among the pros. Watch virtually any video and you will see it to some degree.

[LeonL]

I think he specified "offside".

[2tracmind]

Good thread and discussion. Many good comments.

One technical body position to be aware of is losing the position of our shoulders at:

transition, preturn, and reach. These can all result in tipping in, although they look a bit different along the way.

What to be Aware of ? We are all aware of proper stance and body position. Shoulders need to be slightly behind the chest and your sternum up and slightly forward. (Matt Rini has a nice article on line about this). If or when we lose this position and the shoulders come forward only an inch or two, the sternum drops in and ... we lose our ability to stay level in the shoulders and head. TIP IN.

 

 

 

So all you Ballers know, I love @solski "like a redheaded step son" and we have wasted a lot of time discussing, debating, arguing and plan old fighting at times about all things water skiing. Level Headed has been in HIS top 3 focuses ( He has 10 or more) for 6 years. He admittedly is unsuccessfully more often than not with " level Headed " skiing. When he fixes the 1st mistake, the level head appears like MAGIC. Look out , he is going to give it to me now.

 

[ToddL]

@cragginshred - are you tipping as an active motion to force something to happen or are you tipping re-actively as a symptom of something else? I think those are two different issues and likely have two different solutions.

 

I've seen skiers who are "tipping" due to a loss of balance or speed. They are sort of falling towards the inside of the turn. This can be caused by forcibly leaning over in the turn more than the ski's speed and the turn's centrifugal force can support the skier. In that case the recommendations above apply.

 

However, if you are forcing something by dropping your torso inward, that's something completely different. In that case, I'd suggest that you need to either 1) learn to let the ski finish its own turn (more patient, later exit from the buoy, but with better cross-course angle, and connection); or 2) look about 2-3 actions prior to the turn as to why you feel the need to do so. You may simply be shallow and fast into the buoy and reacting to that.

 

 

[bishop8950]

Several good points posted above. Cool content.

 

One thing I notice is That I tip in more when I dont have a tight line at the apex. I fall over looking for the rope. When I have the line tight moving out to the Alex I have no temptation to tip.

 

[Deep11]

Hi @craigginshred - good stuff above, I had a look at your wakey video from before to see what the issue might be. Looks to me like a combination of what @toddl said.

Your "default" way of turning is to start from the "top down" i.e. You lean with your head and shoulders and the rest follows. You can see this clearly from the turn in and 1 bouy. Once you start "falling" there is not a lot you can do to change it. This then challenges acceleration Etc Etc further on in the pass you are then fast at the bouy and having to force the lean just like @toddl said.

Not sure how easy it will be to change but to achieve what you want you need be turning "from the ski up." I.e. "The ski goes then you go."

[RazorRoss3]

@Deep11 makes a few interesting points. Once you start tipping it is almost impossible to stop, at that point you've fallen off balance and there is nothing that's going to catch you other than the boat if you're lucky enough to have a tight line connect to up before you're sitting in the lake. The point of origin for this problem isn't always the turn itself though in my experience.

 

Part of the problem skiers have with the turn is that we think that because the problem manifested in the turn that that is were the initial error occurred but that is not always the case. For this example, if you are tipping and your head and shoulders aren't level it's possible if not likely that your head and shoulders are almost never level, including in the pull. If you are tipped away in the pull, that creates excess load on the line, when you edge change you will get "swung" and not good wide early, I mean the boat will unload and kick the ski out beyond your balance point. Because you were tipped and loaded in the pull you become tipped in and off balance in the turn, this pattern then feeds itself because from tipping in the turn you are now tipped away in the next pull, create excess load, get unloaded going to the ball and are tipped in and off balance again, etc...

 

To take my earlier comment a step further:

"1) think about either raising your inside shoulder, or pushing your outside shoulder down to keep your shoulders level as you finish the turn.

2) when you reach make sure your reach has a slight forward component so that the handle is a couple inches in front of your hips."

 

you may want to examine your body position throughout the course and ensure level head and shoulders the entire time you are on the water, waiting for the pullout, the pullout, glide, gate turn in, etc... that will allow you to take the same or greater angle with less effort and load so the ski will move faster across course and because you haven't generated as much load you will avoid getting unloaded by the boat which will set you up taller and less prone to tipping in at the buoy.

 

So new summary:

1. stay tall with level head and shoulders throughout the course

2. extra focus on #1 in the turn, raise the inside shoulder up or push the outside down depending on how you think

3. keep the handle a few inches in front of your hips so you have room to turn in behind it rather than needing to fall away and hope it catches you.

[Skoot1123]

I'll have to say @RazorRoss3 I am very impressed with your observations. You hit the nail on the head.

In my experience if I don't consciously think about keeping my head level I will inevitably tip in during my harder passes, then it's an all out battle to even make it to the next buoy.

Getting "unloaded" by the boat is an apt description for when you feel like your slongshotted across course and headed straight for the buoy. Is that how you would describe it @RazorRoss3?

[Lovell]

@Horton I appreciate your response to my comment. I really did not spend enough time on this and don't want mislead anyone. I think that I may have interpreted the issue incorrectly. Personally, I tend to lean into the turn and close off my outside shoulder to the boat when I am not skiing well, which keeps me from getting my hips in the correct position. I have photo of this that I'll try to post if I can figure out how. To prevent this I focus on letting the ski finish and having my outside shoulder open to the boat. I try to focus on keeping the my outside shoulder open on the way into and out of the ball. I have always thought of leaning into the turn as tipping, but I think it is really something else. Anyhow, I can totally see your point and agree it is bad idea to have too much weight on your back foot. Personally, I am lucky to the extent I tend to ride the center of the ski, pretty well given my skiing level, that is clearly not even close to yours.

All this stuff fascinates me.

[jimbrake]

@Skoot1123 - I think the correct term is actually "schlongslotted".

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@jimbrake - Is it happy hour already?

[So_I_Ski]

What Razor says! Koodos for a thorough analysis. Now get back on the water you lucky b**turd. Me, I'll warm up the snow shovel. That white shit is coming.

[Horton]

@Lovell that makes perfect sense

[RazorRoss3]

@Skoot1123, yes, that's exactly what happens. The unload throws up at the ball rather than allowing you to stay outbound and carve an early path to the ball.

[cragginshred]

Thanks for all the comments!

 

@ToddL -spot on. As I said in the OP I think I was jamming the ski (resulting in a slight loss of balance inward -Offside) due to still getting used to the 2017 Vapor pro AND the faster water and being at my shortest line length.

@Deep11 kudos for watching my video from pervious posts to have a good idea of what it looked like and good advice!!

 

I actually have footage from last Sunday but my Wakeye is still super shaky despite buying that extra stabilizer part for $100.

 

I may still post it later this weekend!

[ToddL]

FWIW, I do like @RazorRoss3 's and other's comments about posture into the buoy and out of the turn. Level head, level shoulders (raising inside or keeping outside down/level), etc. are all helpful ideas assess and implement as needed.

 

For me, I have learned that what I do right after the edge change has more impact on the rest of the turn. I have learned that just as the edge change is finishing, I want to move my inside hip up and forward. (Inside hip = the one that will come closest to the buoy)

 

This motion does so many things for me. It moves my COM forward while allowing my head and shoulders to stay up and level. It creates a little "counter" without really doing crazy active twisting. It also keeps me centered and balanced on the ski. All of this translates into continued outbound direction and controlled speed into the buoy with a tight line. When that happens, the end of the turn just takes care of itself.

 

[Deep11]

That is it - my key for a good turn too.

I was thinking about "why" and perhaps it's because it centres you on the ski (in all directions) and (if you keep everything "tight" limits your ability to "wobble" off the side of the ski or fall back.

Easy to confuse with counter rotation - which its not.

[jimbrake]

@Bruce_Butterfield - always.

[jimbrake]

@cragginshred - saw your recent post of one of your passes on FB. One thing I noted was that coming out of your 135 side you are in a hurry to get in a hips up position. So much so that you get stacked behind your feet. That is driving with the brakes and gas on at the same time. In other words, you're hindering your acceleration out of that side by being behind your feet. That will always result in a lot of force from the boat pulling you downcourse into the next ball AND pulling you to the inside (tipping) into the 246 side turn.

 

I can tell you've worked hard on your stacked position, having your hips up and your hands close to your hips/legs. Good job on that for sure, but that stack needs to be more over your feet to let the acceleration happen early when it should. If you can improve that, you'll find yourself getting across quicker with more angle and less pull to the inside from the boat. You'll get that swinging wide and up on the boat feeling and staying level will be WAY easier. If you don't do that then staying level is still a good goal, but it'll be more of a band aid fix.

[cragginshred]

See link below which has -22 and -28 sorry so shaky Wakeye issues despite buying extra $100 stabilizer part

[cragginshred]

@jimbrake thanks you are right about being rushed off the 1/3/5 this also seems to hinder the ski from finishing it's turn. I see a bit of lean back (brake) versus out with hips in the pull out too.....What is the key to fixing this?

 

Isn't the pull out a good place to start working on it? I notice Regina, Terry and many others really so an exaggerated hip drop so to speak on their pull out then they stand straight up in the glide. Badal does that then seems to do a front knee flex just as he drops into the gate.

[cragginshred]

Follow link to see -22 and -28 passes below the comments of the 1st vid -easy to impress non skiers ha ha !!

https://www.facebook.com/don.anderson.54772

[RazorRoss3]

If your head and shoulders stay level the ski will turn much sharper. It's a turn radius problem. the turn radius is the horizontal distance from shoulder to ski, if you tip in then that is basically your height as the turn radius. If your force your head and shoulders to stay level it keeps your torso tall so now your inside shoulder is on top of your inside hip so your turn radius is the horizontal distance from your inside hip to your ski. The shorter turn radius mean a faster turn where the ski maintains more of it's speed and you won't feel as rushed.

 

I don't think most skiers think about dropping the hip since that usually makes you drop your ass back which isn't what you want. The from-shore-visual of a hip drop I think is that the skier is leaning but keeping the shoulders up and level so there is a bend at the hip because the lower body is leaning but the upper body is staying tall.

[jimbrake]

@cragginshred - Yes, start with your pull out. I wouldn't focus on "dropping" your hips away to stay level as you could easily drop them away from the boat, but not in the direction you need to travel which is forward/left. Try "seeing level" (vertical head, level shoulders) before you make your move out then press forward and left with your core. Chris Parrish coached me to start with hands low/straight arms and to make a conscious move up over my front (left) foot then move out left but still forward.