The Optimal Slalom Boot

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell - my boot is cut down and trimmed as per your pdf guide... it is slightly lower than the radar boot.... I cut the 2 notches between the forefoot buckles after I had the rest of the boot cut down..

 

I think the overall cuff height is slightly less than 6”.. I guess I could go lower - as for lowering the cuff buckle, I just need to think about how the reinforce the area where there is a slot cut into the plastic...

 

I think I have and idea about cutting a lower section out of the rear and incorporating the brace to pin the cuff fwd....

 

As for the 3/4” holes...sounds interesting....do we even need the cuff? Or is it there to provide a means for the release mechanism to work???

[Adam Caldwell]

 

 

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@Wish good question. As much as is necessary? I'd start by going about 50% of the width of your leg at the level of the cuff down to maybe 1" above the apex of your inner ankle bone. I'd then pin the cuff and rebake the liner while possibly sticking my thumb down there and rolling that liner back a bit.

 

Great speed zipties.

[gavski]

I can feel a easter holiday boot modification coming on....

 

one of the issues that i had with the pinned cuff - particularly in cold temps, was it was almost impossible to slide my foot+liner into the boot without warming the boot up in warm water first - the plastic is too rigid when cold....i have tried with the liner inserted and then sliding my foot in, but the angles just make it impossible..i have considered making the cuff articulate to get your foot in, and then you lock it in place with a wing nut - but this is just more faff that you don't need standing on a ski dock...any ideas? maybe the warm water is the easiest option..

 

as an aside, i am keen to try the liner with the bottom cut out - as adam suggested. i even have one pre-made...it is just too cold at the moment to not to have the foam underfoot..

[fox197]

@adamhcaldwell a bit off topic but what buckles are they on your hardshell?

[Adam Caldwell]

@gavski - the cuff at original height(even if the short vertical part is cut level with the front) is too high in the back for being locked fwd. Perhaps if you start by just lowering the back of the cuff as @bracemaker suggested - you'll see some of it in the picture of mine, it will be a lot easier to get into.

 

Also, to answer your previous question, "do we even need a cuff?".

 

After my first ride on the HO Hardshell boot and failing to run past 32 on a well dialed ski. I took my old reflex out which had the white cuff, and was fixed forward. I cut off all the cuff material such that it was merely a back rest and nothing more. Leaving absolutely nothing infront of the ankle or shin. Ill try to dig for a picture. I mounted that boot in the exact same place as the HO, and my normal boot and ran straight up the line though 38 and 3/4 of the way though 39 very very cleanly. Definitely had way more forward flex. So much so that I put it back on the shelf. Not worth crushing a ankle since with the front of the cuff completely gone there is no way to engage the release. But, it proved something. If the cuff is too restrictive, its definitely worse then not having one at all.

 

Also, I am 99% sure KLP uses a piece of rubber wrapped around his shin for a cuff. Can anyone validate that? Again, finally to answer your question, technically...NO we dont need a cuff. High / stiff hard-shell cuffs seem too extreme in terms of restricting motion and it is very obvious when you watch people ski on them.

 

@fox197 The reflex buckles before they broke at the pin joint after ~6mo. I have a buddy at Tecnica up in NH. He sent me a box full of stuff to play with. I'm going on my 9th month and they're still going strong.

 

You can find them all on this page.

https://www.tecnicausa.com/parts/

 

Lot more options then Reflex and work as well if not better.

 

If you look close, I do mount the toe buckle lower on the outside of the foot and put the mount screw in the lowest hole it fixes any issues with it popping open and you can put much more tension on that part of the shell. The original mount location reflex ships out the toe buckle at pops open way too easily.

 

I also bend the buckles to contour the shell so they dont stick out and lift open when going around a ball, and mount the cuff buckle in the opposite direction so it doesn't catch water/buoys.

 

@gavski - I mounted the buckle so low on the cuff that its way below the original cutout you refer to. (see the second picture down in above post). It doesn't need reinforcement persay. The cuff shouldn't be excessively tight anyway - just snug at best.

 

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

Something that may blow some minds.

 

During moments within an offside turn, the shin of the front foot is actually bending laterally toward the outside of the foot while the shin rotates inward allowing the knee to travel across the inside of the foot.

 

As for an onside turn basically the opposite can, the shin moves laterally over the inside of the foot, the shin rotates outward to allow the knee to travel forward and across the inside of the foot.

 

This range of these motions will differ significantly depending upon how much 'counter' you incorporate into your turns.

 

It took my a while to wrap my mind around this. Its something that I only figured out playing with cuff mods more or less on accident. I noticed a change I made to the cuff with the intent to fix an issue I had with an onside turn actually made the off-side significantly better also.

 

This is why the cuff shouldn't be excessively limiting in lateral range of motion, or forward flexion. Your body moves in ways that are not very intuitive.

 

Look very closely at the picture of Nate previously posted and see if you can pick up on what I am referring to.

[jimski]

@twhisper what spacing do you run between your double refex. I'm at 12 1/4 inch ankle to ankle -hinge to hinge on the boot and some say I need my feet closer together.

With size 10 1/2 feet I cant get them any closer.

Thanks

[Wish]

I forgot how good of a thread this is.

[ISP6ball]

@adamhcaldwell curious if you've had anymore insight into binding setup or if you're running a similar setup to what you had in 2018?

 

For those that have modified your hardshell setup, are you happy with the outcome?Thanks

[Adam Caldwell]

Same setup.

[skibug]

I don't have a reflex set up, but I did employ the same concept of limited travel with my Fluid Motion hard shell cuff; meaning it is fixed so that it cannot go under 15° - 20° to normal (i.e. always flexed forward. I experimented with taking off my limited travel mechanism to see what it would feel like after a few years of using it. I went back to the dock and put it right back on.

[ghutch]

This has been one of my all time favorite threads and I think it needs to be revised with old man winter coming on. My question is.. who all has done some of these mods and skied better? I'm going to start the process and try it out over the winter.

[Stefan]

@ghutch , Great thread, thanks for bumping it!! I see that I have a lot of mods to do on my front Reflex Supershell and rear R-Style setup...

@adamhcaldwell , any new ideas on your setup you are willing to share? I guess 2 1/2 years since your last post might have given you loads of new ideas?

[Adam Caldwell]

@Stefan - That boot was the last build I did and it incorporates all of the attributes I look in a shell. Have not touched it since except for replacing the spring inside the release.

[Stefan]

@adamhcaldwell @9400 my mods after your pics

 

[Adam Caldwell]

Looks like a great start!

 

Recommend giving some love to the buckles to help these lay flat against the shell itself.

Couple of adjustable wrenches will do the trick.

 

Depending on what you previous binding is, there is a chance when you go to ride it the boot will need to shift either forward or back to rebalance the ski. If coming from a stiff full size hard-shell, my guess is you'll want to shift slightly back, versus if coming off a really soft rubber boot, then probably forward a hair.

 

 

[bko]

@adamhcaldwell: you have made a cut on each side of the shell (the ones you secured with zip ties). I guess they are meant to allow for even more mobility of the upper part/cuff.

But on the other hand the two bolts on each side next to the pivot joint plus the two black latches on the back enhance the stability of it. Do you still consider this combination the best solution or do you think that Stefan's approach using the 2 blocks (to prevent from moving back) and the textile strap can do the job?

[Stefan]

@adamhcaldwell I come from the boot on the pics, but of course standard version. I have a R style back with similar cut as @9400

[Adam Caldwell]

@Bko - Sometimes you can take things a little too far.

 

Where I made the cut you are referring to, it became way too sloppy and let the cuff flex too much to the point I felt like it was causing more issues then benefit. I just strung it back together with zip-ties which has worked surprisingly well for a long time.

[bko]

@adamhcaldwell: Thank you for the answer. I start tinkering as soon as I get a spare boot.

[aupatking]

@adamhcaldwell the most difficult thing I’ve found is finding places to get consistent measurements. Where is your upper cuff, outside screw, from the ground/counter top/base plate? In the 2 photos below I am measuring an altered boot and an unaltered boot.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@aupatking - its in this thread at the top of this page.

[aupatking]

I was mostly looking for a solid starting place. Seeing where your buckle ended up felt like an end result. I’m amazed at the difference cutting down the inner boot makes. I did one side, then put the liner back on and the feel from one side without, to the other with is so dramatic. I’m ready for a warm day to give this thing a try.

 

[gavski]

Be care with that setup before you ski...you haven’t finished job..if you look at Adam Caldwell’s boot, he has 2 strips of aluminium at the rear of his boot that lock the cuff to the boot...this serves 2 purposes:

 

1. He has the cuff locked in at the optimal angle.

2. The locked cuff has a robust release mechanism - just like when the webbing strap pulls tight in an otf fall - thereby transmitting your force to release the binding.

 

All you have is a small bolt that will 100% break/ bend just from normal skiing, let alone a fall..your Achilles will then take all the force of a fall..

 

Under adams guidance, I modified my boot..lots of r&d, learnt a lot..ultimately came up with an almost identical design..I used 2 steel plates that I carefully bent into shape to lock the cuff in place...1 simply wasn’t enough. The amount of force you generate just from normal skiing kept bending the plate...

 

 

I kept the webbing strap - although it is not used..

 

You also have more important steps to make...

 

1. you have to flatten the sole of the boot.

2. You have to cut the bottom off your liner.

3. You have to make adjustments to the cuff to get your lower leg in the center of the cuff when the buckle is done up..

4. Consider swapping out the top buckle for a wake/snowboard ratchet style - it will conform to the shape of your leg better than your current buckle..

 

I can honestly say that this binding modification has made the biggest improvement to my skiing...

 

Happy to send photos of my set up.

[bko]

@gavski:

can you please elaborate on: "adjustments to the cuff to get your lower leg in the center of the cuff when the buckle is done up"

 

Of course I would love to see some photos...

[aupatking]

@gavski thanks for the info. I was planning on making a mould of the rear of the boot and laying up a fiberglass/carbon “X-strap” to lock down the rear. I do need to flatten that boot. I’ve finally got enough extra boots that I don’t mind murdering one. Just in case

[gavski]

This will give a simple explanation about the cuff and lower leg.

 

 

Cutting the cuff down goes a long way to reducing this problem.

 

However adding a foam wedge between the liner and cuff on the ‘inside’ (big toe side) of the cuff will help to make the cuff neutral and not biased to your onside..

 

Read here for more info:

 

http://www.skibootalignment.com/page9.html

 

I managed to pursuade an ex pro friend of mine into trying this set up, as he has never skied to the same level since making the switch to a hard shell after a bad ankle injury. He couldn’t believe the difference...he said that it felt like his old Wiley binding..he could feel the ski and felt like he could move again.

 

Having dropped to 34 mph a while back. He is back up to 36 and blasting through 39’ off with ease.

 

My boot: currently going through a winter respray.

 

 

I insert the liner into my boot first...then slide my foot into the binding. I am standing directly onto the footbed, which is custom and I have added a Naboso insole. This season, I have skied out of my skin and the only change to my setup is the addition of the Naboso insole...

The bottom of my liner looks funky, but it is cut to match my footbed..

[Deanoski]

Robert P, -Sacha, FW and many other do nothing to there boots and ski lights out. is the T factor the best boot ? no mods needed just ski.

[Adam Caldwell]

@gavski - I don't use aluminum on my binding to anchor the cuff position. Aluminum thinner then 1/8" will bend and not go back to original position. And I didn't like the look of 1/4" aluminum bars either.

 

The solution was to use strips of 130/1000s G10. It can flex and return to shape if need be. I cut them out of an old reflex plate I had.

[gavski]

@adamhcaldwell, Sorry, my mistake..I couldn’t remember what material you used...but the point was that you used something strong to lock the cuff to the lower boot..

 

@Deanoski: I would bet that most skiers are using hardshells because of an ankle wrecking fall - in my case ...Undoubtedly the best setup is a rubber/ vapor front and rtp...

 

Rubber boots remove all the issues with lower leg & cuff angles...very few people have lower legs that sit perfectly central in a hardshell cuff..it’s the same in snow skiing. This is a huge subject and it can be the difference between podium and scraping a top 10 place...marginal gains, but many a dominant World Cup Skier one season has bombed the following season and all that has changed is the boot setup....

[Deanoski]

delete

[gavski]

That is the one downside of the hardshell set up...I think most of us have had horrendous releases..maybe one of these days I will switch back to a rubber/ vapor boot..

 

I love head products - they make the best ski equipment..sadly not in head boots as they are too narrow. Even head boots need work to get them aligned..Harald Harb is the master. This is just using his principles and Adam C’s tweaking to create the best hardshell setup possible..

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@gavski @adamhcaldwell

I've been accused of alot of things related to my Frankenstein bindings, but it looks like I need to step up my game:) Good stuff!

[Adam Caldwell]

For anyone trying to run short line in a hardshell…One big issue with hard shells is the heel can roll up and slide sideways out of the plate. The softer the plastic (goode powershells) the more likely it is to happen, or release from a roll or lateral torqueing moment instead of a forward heal lift. This is NOT GOOD.

 

Issues like these are not well resolved in the current designs. There's more to be done to improve the safety of the current product, HOWEVER with a little extra attention - a well thought-out hard-shell setup is hard to beat.

 

If you don't do the work to make sure your boot/release system is safe for short-line and fail keep up with the maintenance of certain parts, then you can just plan your next hospital trip.

 

Worth noting, if you ever experience a 'weird fall' more then once and your release hardware is more then 2-3 years old, just buy new parts. I've seen too many people fail to pay attention to simple things and end up paying the price.

 

Also - PLEASE never sell moderate to heavily used release systems to other people. Could be setting them up for disaster.

[Deanoski]

123

[Anderson]

I decided to cut out the bottom of my Intuition liner to get a more solid connection with the ski, and will be filling the forefoot of my Reflex boot with extra neoprene foam on top of my foot to increase responsiveness/feel to upward pressure (vs my calf/achilles to the back of boot). Much of what I have been reading here makes sense - my heaviest deadlifts work best in stocking feet; and with squats, cleans and snatches, a tight-laced, hard-soled lifting shoe (with some elevation of the heal) provides the best balance for these relatively dynamic movements. I feel like underfoot padding is about impact absorption which I don't need skiing. Ski season is just a few months away for me – looking forward to trying out some modification to my Reflex system.

@adamhcaldwell @gavski

There are some large recesses in the footbed of the Reflex boot where hardware was designed to be attached (e.g. 2" wide hexagonal space for a nut under the ball of my foot). Did you guys have the same issue with your boots and did you fill the void? I'm thinking some Marine-Tex or Devcon epoxy might fit the bill.

[gavski]

@Anderson - those hex spaces are standard.. initially, I just packed them up with a couple of layers of gorilla tape..you WILL need some form of grip tape covering the whole footbed area that you stand on..despite your foot being held tight, the amount of shear force your transmit down into your foot is incredible and your foot will slide forwards...Waterproof pool/ shower type - heavy duty.

 

The gold standard though is to get a Naboso insole and hold it in place with some very thin double sided tape from 3M. The Naboso insole will give you grip and balance like you wouldn’t believe...

 

The cutting out the bottom of the liner will take a while to get right..you actually need to trim more than you think to get it & your foot comfortable..

 

Once the liner in placed into the boot and correctly seated, I use washing up liquid on my toes, ball of foot and heal to help slide my foot in as it is a snug fit..

[bko]

@gavski

Thank you for the insights.

 

More questions arose:

- don't you think the circular holes on in- and outside of the upper cuff - like on Adam's boot - are useful?

- how about the cut between first and second buckle?

- which kind of Naboso insole do you recommend? (there are 3 types available on their website)

[gavski]

@bko. I am not sure about the function of the circular holes on adams boot.

 

The cut between the first and second buckle has 2 purposes:

1. To allow the boot to ‘give’ and move a little - allowing a bit more natural movement of the foot. I think these boots are way to rigid and actually block/ restrict your foot & lower leg natural movement. How Joel Howley skis with his set up is beyond me..but he could probably ski just as well with a flip flop.

2. When you flatten the sole of the boot, it allows the top part of the boot to move as the shape of the sole changes. supershells need a lot of heat and the 2 cuts helps the boots change shape..

 

As for the Naboso insole. I would go for the ‘Performance‘ insole..tbh, they all look similar. I have conformed mine to my custom footbed...that custom footbed was also modified - ideally it needs to be cut down to 3/4 size so that the ball of your foot and toes are touching the bottom of the boot. Done correctly, you shouldn’t be able to feel where the footbed ends.

 

https://us.v-cdn.net/5017617/uploads/editor/2c/tlltfb8lmv8k.jpeg

 

I then peeled off the red cover and then glued the full length naboso insole on top...this is then stuck inside my boot to stop it fall out when the boot is turned upside down.

 

Patience and a lot of trimming is the key to getting the footbed and liner fitting perfectly..

[Adam Caldwell]

@gavski - The holes reduce the stiffness of the cuff. Generically, Reflex plastic is too stiff. This is one very simple way to mitigate the issue and create more pliability and articulation above the ankle joint. Makes it less like skiing in a cast above the ankle.

 

 

[bko]

@adamhcaldwell: again thanks for your wisdom

 

@gavski: doesn't your contoured, orthotic footbed conflict with the concept of flattening the sole of the shell? Isn't it considered crucial to stand completely flat in sport boots/shoes - without any support for the arch of the foot?

[gavski]

My foot is flat..there maybe 1mm height difference from heel to toe.

 

I have a custom footbed to hold my foot in a neutral position. Without it, my arch would collapse under pressure of the boot and weight and my lower leg would then drop inwards as I flex my ankle. Consequently, my center of knee mass would then track inwards during flexion.

 

If your base (foot) isn’t supported properly, then every time you load and flex, your misalignment gets magnified as it travels up the body causing you to make pretty big compensatory movements.

 

My foot needs support - I know that because I have had it measured and had major work done to my ski boots to get me in alignment - both boots are different..Most people will need Footbeds and most will need alignment. The difference between good and bad alignment to your skiing is night & day..

 

Note: not all footbeds are equal...the one I have is a SIDAS/ comformable type, which still allows my foot to move naturally...cork type foot beds, which are rigid make things worse as they block your foot completely...you might as well be wearing a cast...As long as the arch support has some give, and it holds your foot in neutral, then you might be able to get away with an off the shelf footbed - like Radar & superfeet..you can even customise those with a little silicone and help form YouTube..

 

Flatten your boot, cut down the cuff, cut out the bottom of your liner, get a Naboso insole and use a neoprene wedge to balance your cuff...go rip up the slalom course...

 

Other things you can consider:

1. add a 1inch cut out between the boot buckles on both sides of the boot to allow the boot to move with your foot.

2. Lock the cuff in position - there is an optimal angle, which has been discussed before somewhere on this forum.

3. Add a small piece of neoprene to the liner in the area of your toes. This will add downward pressure onto your toes, which massively helps your fore/ aft balance.

 

Note: when you flatten out the boot, you will need to wrap duct tape, or something similar, around the toe bar to fill the gap.

 

Once I respray my boot and cut some holes in the cuff, I will post some photos..

[Anderson]

@gavski thanks for your thoughts and for sharing your experience. The idea of boot cuff alignment to lower leg axis of motion is really interesting to me. Do you achieve that by altering the cuff hole on one size of the boot (up or down) to create a certain angle/degree of cant that matched your lower leg angle in its forward/backward range of motion, and/or are you using neoprene foam to fill a gap on the inside (on one side) of your cuff to ensure equal pressure/responsivness on each side of your leg? If so, on which side are you adding foam? Hope this makes sense ;-)

[gavski]

@Anderson: yes and yes...

 

Because my boot is the first supershell, the cuff rivets are just that...rivets that allow the cuff to move fwd & aft..I think version 3 started to incorporate lateral cuff adjustment..

 

So, after successful snow seasons using diy cuff adjustments with foam pads - read this: http://www.skibootalignment.com/page9.html

 

I took the plunge and got my boots properly aligned by Harald Harb - https://harbskisystems.com/

 

Armed with this knowledge, and after trashing my ankle in an animal boot I decided to go plastic. I originally canted my whole binding over with an under binding wedge. This worked great, but I needed to drastically raise my rear boot to get my feet at the same height...

 

After much help from Adam C, I am where i am now...I managed to drill out the cuff rivets and create a cam to laterally cant the cuff over...

 

but, like in all ski boots, that adjustment is generally not enough. So I use a small foam pad taped to the inside of the cuff on the ‘Inside’ of my leg...before I cut the cuff down and the bottom out of my liner, that foam wedge was Velcro’d to my liner - so it was always in position. Something like this:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdodgeskiboots.com%2Fwant-to-get-spoiled%2F&psig=AOvVaw2MDzYU-qU5OXxhaNRbwZy4&ust=1607633643260000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCIjj0ZLkwe0CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAU

 

I have successfully added a wedge to several slalom skiers at all levels both plastic & hybrid boot.

 

The lower down you cut your cuff, the smaller the wedge that you need. The further over you can laterally move the cuff, the smaller the wedge..

 

You are trying to get your lower leg to be central in the cuff. With the wedge, you take up the ‘extra’ space because your leg is over to one side..this then means that when your boot is tightened up, your boot then stays flat - neutral...without it, the cuff will conform to your leg, which will then apply unequal pressure to the cuff when the boot is flat...in most cases, this will be the onside edge of the cuff...the resultant effect is a unbalanced on & offside turns...super strong onside, and weak offside....yes, you will get used to it, but you will be making adaptive and unnatural & un-instinctive movements, that will be hard to consistently reproduce...

 

The wedge can be any old piece of rubber/ neoprene. You will need more than you think..once you hit the money shot, it’s magic and obvious..keep testing, go larger to see what happens when you use too much..it will feel funky, prob just like you’re first sets on the plastic boot..

 

Side note...when you get it right, you will also start to notice that none of your previous aches and pains that plagued your ski season are there...

 

Ski longer, harder & with more balance.

[gavski]

Look at this photo of the Italian demo ski team...the best Italian ski instructors....how many of them have good boot alignment?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pmts.org%2Fpmtsforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D9%26t%3D4578&psig=AOvVaw27rcmc1jmo0UrpckaRWVVc&ust=1607635317055000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCPj48LDqwe0CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

 

 

 

[Deanoski]

over thinking it!!

 

[gavski]

The answer is 2...

 

Why? Because it is a grossly misunderstood and under appreciated subject. From top race coaches, manufacturers, elite skiers, & instructors etc etc.

 

There is a reason that AM was so dominant...apart from his talent, he understood this stuff better than anyone..his setups were always different, why? Because he worked out how important it was..

 

Just read about how different his rtp was....

[dchristman]

Real men just use a bed of nails on the deck barefoot for the ultimate in no-slip and ankle-flex. You can really feel the edge change!

[mike_mapple]

@gavski his front boot was also cut much lower than most peoples were / he was not one to say certain boots were for everyone, he was big on having people find what worked best for them. Thats why he liked the Reflex / harshell, because you really can make the height of the boot what you want. (with a bit of elbow grease, or a knife.)