Anyone build or know about building a private site? We need your help with state laws etc.

[jercrane]

We are deep into the process of scoping a location in NH for building a new private ski site. It will be truly amazing once its complete. Gravel pit in the middle of no where surrounded by tall trees on all sides with gorgeous views of the White Mountains to the North. Beautiful clean water source (aquifer fed). Its essentially a series of ponds that have surfaced as the gravel operation hit the water table and they filled. We're going to connect them into a single body. We have investors lined up and the owner of the gravel pit is willing and able to do the digging himself. It's basically a unicorn site. Here's where the questions come in that we could use guidance on from folks that have been through this.

 

In NH all bodies of water over 10 acres are considered public assets. Ie the actual water cannot be private. However this site once completed will be completely surrounded by private land with no public access.

 

Given the water is public but not accessible to the public do we still need to abide by all state water use laws?

For instance the total width of the site will be about 260 feet in the Slalom course section. In NH we have a 150 foot rule. A skier must always be at least 150 feet from shore. So even though 260 feet is more than enough for a course it will essentially it will be impossible for the skier to not cross the 150 threshold. Do we care? Do we have to abide by this?

 

In NH you also have to permit on slalom courses on public lakes. Do we have to permit this? What about the Jump?

 

Does anyone operate a Private site in a state with similar laws to NH. Any experience? As far as we can tell this would be the first private man made site in NH.

 

Rendering of final overlaid on a Drone image of the site.

 

 

(ignore the jump direction ... the designer doesn't ski :)

Also not likely to ring the entire lake with boardwalk)

 

 

[Taperflex]

I built a lake in Alabama about 10 yrs. ago. We had to get a permit from the Corps of Engineers and one from the Ala. Dept. of Environmental Management. The Corps never gave us any trouble, but ADEM came by once a month to check everything. I'm sure Alabama is not as environmentally strict as NH. Good luck. It was totally worth the effort, building the lake, but rest assured, it was definitely a "labor of love".

[klindy]

One of the biggest challenges you might face is the proximity of the Cold River to the west. It looks like it'll be within 350-400' of the waters edge of the lake. The Cold River would definitely qualify as "waters of the US" (I suggest you read up on the current waters of the US debate). Looks like there's a creek and perhaps some low/swamp area to the east too that might come into play. Typically the state EPA authority would want to see a 500' buffer.

 

One thing in your favor depends on the status of the gravel pit currently. It may be grandfathered "around" most of these current laws (depending what NH law is). I would also study any permits that the current gravel pit has. They may be the key to accomplishing what you want to do or they may restrict things enough to make it impossible without significant modifications.

 

Looks like a cool project!!

[jercrane]

ok @klindy I gotta know ... how did you know about the Cold river? Thats some impressive detective work. :)

[MrJones]

Can you apply for en exemption from the public water designation given it's surrounded and has no public access?

[Chef23]

You should reach out to the people that manage Dube's pond in Hooksett, NH. They maintain a slalom course that I believe has private access. I know @Bdecker and @Ali Ski there. There is a tournament there this weekend on Sunday. I think they are running practice on Saturday. The details are on the USA Waterski website. @Edbrazil might have some insight as well.

 

What part of NH?

[jercrane]

@Chef23 I know @Bdecker well and have skied Dube's. I've been chatting with them. Dube's is kind of a special case from my understanding. Its actually a public waterway. It only has public access for small craft. The ramp the club uses is on private property. We do need to dig into their situation a bit more but technically speaking they are required to follow all state laws on Dube's. I thin they get away with some squishiness on the edges because they have been there for a long time and Dube family connection.

[klindy]

@jercrane NH is a pretty small state and it wasn't hard to find on Google maps. The electric transmission lines were the main clue. When I read your initial post, the first thought I had was whether it was adjacent to any lake or river that could be considered Waters of the US.

[LeonL]

In KY water belongs to who owns the surrounding land. However it still comes under the jurisdiction of the Department of Fish and Wildlife, as does ALL lands. Their rational is that wildlife is everywhere and fish are in the water. Only twice have they ventured on our property in our 23 years of ownership. Once when the gate was left open because an acquaintance asked to come and fish. Coincidently the Fish and Wildlife guy showed up. The guy had no license and was cited. Other occurrence was due to an injury that required EMS. EMS is required to report such accidents and F & W showed up. That's when he told me of his broad range of jurisdiction. All enforcement agencies have to have "probable cause" to come on ones property. F &W has probable cause due to fish and wildlife being present. All activities on our lake are subject to all laws that apply to any public body of water. But, they don't come out, except for above examples.

Most of you who have been on BOS for any length of time have heard this from me at least twice before, my apologies to you for my repetition.

[Bdecker]

@jercrane - this project sounds awesome. No other current site in the state has been purpose built that I am aware of. You can be certain if a boat can be seen or heard someone is likely to say something. Better to have it covered upfront, I have a call into a friend with a long history in Concord for advice and direction. Can’t wait to ski there!

[lpskier]

If you are in a permitted mine (gravel pit), keep mining until you have what you want. Then close the mine and reclaim the dry areas with grass seed. Survey in your course and jump. Post “No Hunting or Fishing” signs at the entrance. Ski until your heart is content. NH may own the water, but you own the land around and under the water. Don’t forget to slope your banks while you continue to mine. This is a much different circumstance than starting with a field and a dream. The pit probably already has a permit. Use it to the fullest.

[mwetskier]

what @lpskier said. plus, the concept of all water being public has many roots and tentacles but one purpose is to allow for such things as emergency floatplane landings, water source for fire fighting, etc. however, public ' ownership ' and public *access* are two entirely different things and its highly unlikely any state or federal law permits free public access through anyone's private property without some sort of legally conveyed easement.

 

speaking of easements many states have federally mandated public easements along meridian lines and similar invisible north-south and/or east-west borders. some of these automatic conveyances go back 100 years or more. so you will want to explore the possible existence of these on your land through blm records and local dnr records as soon as possible. if you do discover any such easements it would be wise to get them vacated long before your project become public knowledge.

 

and one last point -never allow your state department of fish & game to stock your lake with game fish. if you do they'll immediately and forever after think they own the place.

[Bongo]

@lpskier hit it right with "NH may own the water, but you own the land around and under the water." Look up riparian water rights, as I believe this applies to NH.

 

I'm in Missouri, which follows the riparian doctrine. And live on an artificial lake where all the (practical) land surrounding the lake is governed by the Covenants and Restrictions established when the Community Association (CA) was created and the lake was flooded. Basically, the State of Missouri owns the water. The land under the lake and all adjoining land is owned by the Community Association or governed by the C&R's. In these rules, there are a lot of restrictions imposed upon those who have access to the lake via land; no jet propulsion, boats of a certain length or horsepower, etc. Even though the local Fire Department has a jet ski for water rescue, we (CA) don't allow them to practice their rescue techniques on "our" lake.

 

So when can they (non CA members, such as fire department) access the lake? When they have reasonable cause to intervene. A real water rescue in a true emergency. A reasonable suspicion someone has taken more fish than State law allows. Other than that, you ain't getting on the lake.

 

While not a lawyer, my short view would be: Don't give them a reason where they see there is a dire need to intervene. And in practice, no real issue. (Are they gonna fly a helicopter in to observe what you might be doing that fails to comply?)

 

Bongo

[jercrane]

Awesome thanks folks.

The pit is in fact still active and properly permitted but it is nearing end of life and the current owner is required by the state to "recover the land" at end of life. So this feels pretty opportunistic. The plan would be to keep digging but maybe accelerate a bit and shape properly from here on out. Nice non reflective banks etc.

 

 

 

 

[h2onhk]

What an awesome opportunity. Hope this works out for you guys

[jercrane]

@"h2o.nhk" hope you and lots of other folks on here get to come ski there some day!

[Than_Bogan]

Well apparently I don't have NEARLY the google maps skill as @klindy, because I can't find a damn thing even knowing Cold River is nearby.

 

What town?

[jercrane]

@Than_Bogan well At the request of some of the investors and the property owner I removed the plans that I had included in the original post. The plans made it pretty easy to search google maps. It was a sat view of the pit. They'd prefer we keep the specifics of the location under wraps until we get some of the legalities better understood so as to avoid stubbing our toe. Suffice it to say its north of Concord. Given you are a New Englander. Hit me up on DM if you want to get involved and/or help out. Or if you just want to know when its done and what membership will look like. :)

If we get through this it should be a pretty epic place to ski.

[MichaelGoodman]

In Mass any pond over 10 acres is considered a "Great pond/lake" and you can only own to the waters edge if you live on it. Sounds like NH has the same law. With that being said the pond I own is 42 acres but is man made, it is a old Mill pond made over 200 years ago for powering many different mills over the years. I am able to own the pond because it is man made the original owners owned the land before it was turned into a pond (by damming up the river that ran through it) after the pond was created they still owned the land underneath and that is the title I have. The original owners also had riparian rights that went up and down the river one mile each way. You would own the land you are flooding and I would think you would still own it after the fact.