Perfect Pass Z-Box Upgrade

[alex38]

@keithh2oskier @skiboyny @Windsurfnut I finally installed 9.2 and zbox but before I did, I noted @keithh2oskier's 12 on ball 1 setting, that really helped my SG 9.12.

I put in my 9.2s, auto calibrated, mapped, tested with no skier for timing, put in my old settings for normal 34.2 which are very close to Keith's and ran some passes without zbox engaged. Ran great so I put Zbox on B2 and it was even better, all times were tighter nothing greater than .02 variance and driver said he may have felt it was more consistent.

Not sure who it would apply to, but it really seems like boats with exact same engine configurations will have almost exact same settings, sure saved me some time and experimentation, thank you!

[S1Pitts]

It has nothing to do with value of shipment. It is a cash grab on each transaction period. My wife paid $70 Can funds for administrative border clearing fees with no duties charged for a single Correct Craft baseball hat last Christmas. When she refused to pay it they sent it to a claims company the next day and they harassed us until she gave in and paid.

We never experience this with Fed X and never get charged by Postal Service

[S1Pitts]

BTW The PP folks are great. Had my puck there and back in 5 days. That kind of service is hard to beat.

[keithh2oskier]

@alex38 awesome.

 

Now since we have the same boat, can you hear your boat rev up with the zbox settings? Neither me or my other driver can notice it through the sound.

 

[keithh2oskier]

@Windsurfnut

 

On the zbox diagnostic, can you do this while you are skiing in the course to see if the numbers fluxes?

 

I just went to the garage and can see the number fluctuating on the trailer around 500...

 

Maybe I'll call PP tomorrow for explanation.

 

 

 

[alex38]

@keithh2oskier maybe a little, but I only drove 1 quick set on B2 as the water is cold and backwashy at the moment.

Zbox on 8 which is either your setting or default. Oh, I also went to kx+ As you noted.

I’ll update next ride.

[alex38]

@skiboyny @keithh2oskier

What does the + next to the letter setting do?

[Windsurfnut]

+ next to the letter is the "PLUS" setting in the later ZO versions. If I recall a slightly faster entrance speed and stronger reaction to pull.

[Windsurfnut]

I don't recall if I tried it while pulling a skier. But mine is at the same number while at rest on the lift. I think once in the water I'm at an even 500 as that's what seemed to be the neutral position and I mounted the zbox to achieve that. Not that I think it matters.

[Windsurfnut]

I think a twin boat (same hull / prop / engine) should have the same ball settings providing the baselines are correct. I'm making an assumption that some of the ball settings we are seeing from similar boats are from baselines that are off and correcting for it.

 

With my zbox setting of the default 8, it is very hard to hear the engine rev on my 2002 SN196. I also find that with the muffler, its a pretty quiet boat compared to some MC and Malibus. If I get a skier with a harder pull then you can hear it for sure ramp up. Not much to see on the RPM readout though, unlike ZO where you can really see the RPM numbers swing. I think that is just processor/pickup speed.

[skiboyny]

@alex38 the plus sign is an attempt to emulate the zero off which added plus. The plus added give a bit more aggression to the pull. I've not spent any time with it. The few times I used it I expected the ball times to tighten up but they really seemed to get worse. If you want better ball times adding to the zbox setting will do that. You will also get a stronger pull if that is what you are after.

 

[alex38]

@keithh2oskier @skiboyny @Windsurfnut

And how about the ABC ADJ? Mine is blank and haven’t touched it

[skiboyny]

@alex38 abc adjust is for matching your boat "feel" to that of a zero off boat. For instance if your boat in b2 feels more like a a2 on a zero off boat and you want them to match. I personally don't have enough access to a zero off boat on a regular basis to worry about that. Haven't touched it either.

[Windsurfnut]

I also have not touched the ABC offset. Not enough skiing behind a ZO boat and I’m really just a hack skier.

I thought My b2 setting was similar to a ZO b2 boat I ski behind once in awhile.

This year I changed to A2 and my skiing has improved.

[gcam4]

@Windsurfnut I'm assuming you either made a custom cable to attach to the weatherpack/connector for the GPS or spliced it in? I want to update mine but don't want to deal with customs and I don't have an older computer with serial port, so I will have to use a usb or an adapter.

[Windsurfnut]

I used a usb to serial adapter, the. Took another serial cable and cut it so my adapter was not compromised.

The serial cable wires were soft and though to work with so cut up a cat 5 cable I had to make stiffer pigtails to just push into the puck connector.

I’ve been trying to figure out what the connector is called so I can make a more appropriate connection.

 

There is a wire hidden under the shrink wrap you will need. Just peel it back and you’ll see it.

 

You also need to introduce voltage. If I recall it’s looking for 5v, the technical document suggests a range which I can’t recall. I just used a 12v car battery I had nearby.

[alex38]

@keithh2oskier

Skied another ride just 28’s/34, I checked the last pass nothing over .01 variance and a few 00s

Way firmer through the wakes on B2 which I have always longed for.

Only thing I dislike about Zbox is that I waited so long to get it.

Ski well

 

[keithh2oskier]

That's about as good as it gets. I ended up going into the zbox diagnostic while pulling my wife skiing and its working. So I may move the zbox from 8 to 12 and see if it's a bit firmer.

 

Now I need to write down all my settings before I loose them....

[gcam4]

Thanks @Windsurfnut this will be my project in the next few weeks. I'll just do it on the boat and will have a power source right there!

[keithh2oskier]

Updated @Windsurfnut spreadsheet

@alex38 my 34mph baseline is 3385. Whats yours? I have a Bimini.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UsM99RDC-YlpybtqcjCv1-0ArnljSR_lNVITXSYwElA/edit?usp=drive_open&ouid=102524635880918549491

[alex38]

@keithh2oskier

Autocal set me at 3445 for 34.2

[alex38]

@Windsurfnut @keithh2oskier @skiboyny

Updated sheet, should there be a baseline entry? I just put it in the notes. Question: aren’t “light”, “normal”, “xlarge”, relative to whatever ball settings are in there?

For instance if you change feather to your normal settings won’t it just then be normal?

@keithh2oskier did you get 3385 baseline from autocal? Thinking about manually changing mine.

[keithh2oskier]

@alex38 yes I got mine from autocal. I was actually thinking of trying to raise the baseline closer to yours with the thought that maybe it will prevent the boat speed from dropping off in the pregates and then accelerating into 1 ball giving me consistently fast 1 ball times of 1.74-1.76.

[alex38]

Hmmm, I have same issue sometimes, granted remainder of pass is near perfect, I wonder if that’s fixable.

However, I don’t consider 1.75-1.76 to be fast and drop off is typically minimal.

Maybe try it or re-autocal?

[skiboyny]

@alex38 I think there is something going on besides background numbers on the Feather Normal etc. settings. Pretty sure a rep told me that at some point. For example feather and light have exactly the same backgrounds and yet they are different. Normal is pretty darn close as well and yet it's different.

[alex38]

@keithh2oskier how bout changing your kx to n, i only tried + once and put it back

[keithh2oskier]

Yep. I'll give that a try.

[slmskrs]

Folks, sorry for the delay; our drought forced our water district to cut the flow to our pond and we have no water now. Was scrambling to get my puck with updated FW in and try it out the last day we could still launch (worked great-now no course nearby to finalize my settings....).

 

I've had some extensive dialog with engineering at PP that provides some additional insight into what is going on in the background. I will see if I can paste the back-and-forth into one long comment in the next couple of days. If it's too long, I'll put it in a doc and attach it.

[BraceMaker]

@dchristman you should offer GPS chip updates as side gig. Lots of us have no clue what firmware is on our puck.

 

[thager]

This is complicated! By the time I finish reading this whole post I'll have missed another ski season! :)

[Windsurfnut]

@alex38 yes I think a baseline column is a good idea in the doc. I'll add it

[dchristman]

@BraceMaker technology services is my business. I am happy to upgrade anyone's PP or ZO puck for free (just like PP) if they pay the shipping. Just PM me. The firmware has to be older if you got the puck before September 2019.

[keithh2oskier]

@dchristman what does the firmware upgrade do?

 

I may take you up on your offer if you don't mind.

[dchristman]

@keithh2oskier it fixes bugs, the most critical is the rollover problem that causes the long initial lock time and sporadic issues with losing the lock. See garmin description here: https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=4066

[BraceMaker]

The puck is just a garmin GPS receiver running garmins software to tell it how to communicate. No different than your dog tracking collar or what’s on your side by side quad or your trolling motor.. But PP doesn’t plug into your computer unlike my fish finder so it gets out of date.

[alex38]

@skiboyny @keithh2oskier @Windsurfnut

Hi guys, any known issues with system not picking up mapped course correctly?

Never had this issue until now: one or two times it started entry time waaay after gates, almost at one ball.

Then today I went to do a 0 skier timing pass and it picked up nothing.

[keithh2oskier]

@alex38 no issues with the timing on my boat. I think I haven't had to remap the course since I did SG a few years ago.

[Windsurfnut]

@alex38 only when my puck was acting up with the gps rollover issues. With the new firmware in the puck, it never drops signal or misses the course. Rock solid

[hemlock]

Great thread!

I've had Stargazer on my 03' Malibu Sunsetter for a few years, and currently have version 9.12.

I had the initial surging when I first got it with version 8. Since I've upgraded to 9.12 and modified the background settings (20, 15, 20) the surging went away. I don't have Zbox.

The pulls from 22' into 35' off have been great, (since 9.12) and have no issues. No surging, no weird mid course anomalies, but I do get the odd mid section or end course segments + or - above .04. (All segments and overall timing are within tolerance)

I feel the same pull on my 03' Sunsetter, or my lake buddy's 15' Response (ZO) or 14' Mastercraft (ZO)

And the end of the day, I'm happy with it, but this thread has influenced me to get Zbox. :)

Just to tighten up the segment timings, but maybe also to help me ski more buoys.

So, one is on order!

 

But I'm curious.

This thread contains lots of stats and graphs on PP Stargazer with or without zbox. Thanks to those who shared.

But I would love to see some stats on a pure Zero off boat, again just curious.

Does a ZO boat run straight +-0.0 segments on every ball?

Anyone drive (or ski) both a pure ZO setup, or a PP Zbox setup, and take note of the segment timing? or differences?

 

Thanks.

 

 

[keithh2oskier]

@hemlock I don't ski a zo boat but when I was going through my process of tightening thr times down my dad sent me this from one of his ski buddies.

 

In the case below, they are not perfect but pretty darn close.

 

 

 

 

[slmskrs]

I have pulled the same data from ZO for comparison. I have not seen anything more than .02 off, but there are some subtle things going on behind the scenes as well. One boat it was always .02 slow on a certain ball. But I don't see the S curve that we see, so a lot of what they are doing are behind the curtain. It's not just sample GPS speed; if it was and it was fast enough, then every all would be right on. The bigger difference is really in the ABC123 settings since TBW responds faster. A friend has a 2005 (or newer) SN 196 with TBW; he got PP ZO with Zbox and his times are very tight.

[alex38]

@Windsurfnut @keithh2oskier @skiboyny

What do you think would be best fix for slow 2 ball time?

Raise 3 ball?

Thank you

[skiboyny]

@alex38 raise 1 ball background. Probably like most everyone the one ball times are hot, so the perfect pass subsequently slows the 2 ball. Most people think with a fast one ball time the last thing you would do is raise one ball background, but you need to think like a machine. Oddly enough, many times when you get the 2 ball right the one ball time slows. Go figure...

[brody]

I recently upgraded my malibu to version 9 from 8. I have z box, and never had any issues with it. NO surging, times were great, engagement was perfect and predictable. Now its a disaster, system wont engage till its going at least 2 mph faster than set before it settles down to actual set speed, course times are horrible, does not engage anywhere near as fast as before. I wish i could go back to v8. Any suggestions on it not engaging till 36 when its set for 34? I had the original gps puck but changed it out with a new one after to see if it helped which it did not

 

[skiboyny]

@brody I’d look in to a system reset.

[Windsurfnut]

@alex38 what do the other times look like? A slow 2 ball could indicate fast gate/ball 1 times as well. Does the driver observe any particular boat behavior such Over/Under speed, or hearing the boat apply or reduce throttle?

[alex38]

@Windsurfnut

Other times are all .02 or under, occasionally seems like a drop in rpms after gate, or surging in middle. I got it to just a slow 2 ball and feeling very good so just curious on best fix for that. One suggestion was actually to increase 1ball setting which I may try soon. It’s currently at 12 so maybe I’ll try 15. Ty

[slmskrs]

Just FYI, I did some tests on course mapping. I tried mapping from the pylon, the bow, and the stern. The bow ended up in almost all 1.75. The pylon was 1.75 and a few 1.76. The stern gave me one 1.75 and the rest 1.76. Just for the fun of it, the actual course time at 55kph/34.2mph is 1.767; the display rounds up......

[slmskrs]

Oh, and this difference in 1 ball times based on mapping was confirmed by PP.

[Windsurfnut]

@slmskrs Interesting information on the mapping experiment.

@alex38 I'd have to agree with @skiboyny to raise Ball 1. I'll also add that warmer water temps could require update to AUTOCAL or raising KX, especially with carb'd motors