Joel's Ankle

[jercrane]

I don't understand how Joel broke his ankle so badly at Worlds ... complete mystery. :D

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7FtJd-hQqo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Jordan]

At some point he put up a video on instagram of him buying aluminum angle to cut up into brackets and mounting his boots.

 

Pretty much a demonstration of how you can still get hurt with both feet in. Now, we have no way of knowing if a releasable setup would have prevented or lessened his injury.

[ScottScott]

Thats the Home Depot binding system.

[Wish]

I'll start up this controversy as a distraction to cold weather. I had double roller blade boots permanently attached to my skis since 2001. Zero injury. Every crash imaginable at short line and set a PB of 1.5 @39. Pretty sure that's not just luck considering some of my crashes over that time frame. I'll also add that during the hay day of watching the Big Dawg and velco release systems..I witnessed brutal crashes with double boots where the velco did not release and both feet stayed in and no injury for the most part.

 

Preface: NO system is safe. Theory: In a crash, both feet out at or close to the exact same time or neither coming out is "safer" than the alternative. Am I recommending it...no. But a personal choice to go to no release....not blatantly stupid IMHO.

 

Note.. above is to spur discussion

[Jody_Seal]

I broke my ankle two years ago. Water conditions were near white cap , blew tail out around two ball and jammed the ski into a wave. Never came out of either bindings.

Last year clipped the tip of the ski going around 3 ball blew tail out squirted right out of the bindings. Riped my shoulder though.

Waterskiing is a extreme sport.

Sometimes extreme thinking is necessary to feel safer.

Patrice used to have Frankenstein bindings.

 

[BraceMaker]

I thought he broke his boot in that same crash.

[JackQ]

You all are correct there is not 100% safe solution. It is about minimize the risk, I would never consider having hard shell binders permanently affixed to ski, ala original fogmans, and Joel's system. The consequence of the occasional stuffing the tip into the wake a short line would not end well.

 

I am in the extreme minority that still use and prefer rubber binders(T factors), and feel that they are safer than releasable hard shells. I tried hard shells for a year and never felt as safe.

The initial give or rubbers specifically when the ski stops at the buoy and you collapse into ski where many Achilles tears occur, reduce the risk, a vast majority of the Achilles tears I have seen in the last 10 years have been on hard shell binders.

 

I have been lucky, and but in almost 40 years of practicing and tournaments I have never had a binder related injury, shoulder surgery (sticking arm in water crashing) , back surgery (too may hits?), and my PM is 3@41.

[S1Pitts]

I broke my front ankle back in 2003. No crash....just buried the tip hard on my offside turn.

Like Jody said it is an extreme sport, especially when that line is starting to get shorter.

[A_B]

I skied in double Animals for a long time and had many hellacious falls including a fin without a safety bar falling out of the fin box, a failed front screw on my wing which caused the wing to torque to a straight downward position and stop the ski in its track behind the boat, and numerous handle and rope breaks, etc., and I almost always flew out of both bindings, like superman a few times, without any serious injury.

 

I went to double hard shells on velcro and had a late release that tore the crap out of the inside of my back ankle, didn't break anything, but the Doctor said he only sees that type of interior damage from a car accident. I went out in mid-July and didn't ski the rest of the year.

 

Now that I am only a part-time skier at best, I have skied in Radar Stradas and Vapor boots as a matter of comfort. I am not sure the edge control feels as solid as the Animals or Hard Shells, but I have come out of them for every fall that was remotely violent.

 

So my opinion based on what I have seen is to get away from the ski by releasing from the bindings, but I know others are in the stay in the binding at all cost camp.

 

It is basically whatever you feel comfortable with and what you have personally experienced.

[Andre]

That's also a lot of scew holes in the ski...

[Garn]

I think the boot is screwed to a plate isn't it?

[liquid d]

not more holes....all the braces are mounted to a plate, not directly in the ski.

[Wish]

I think Joels is on a diff playing field. Using those boots to me puts the load of a foward crush way up the leg through higher stiffer cuff and into larger muscles and bone vs a low softer cuff that exposes small ankle bones, tendons and muscle which most if not all current hardshells and hybrid bindings do. Which may be why his ankle did not break.

 

Similar in concept and years ago I started using the boots pictured for that very reason. The boots consisted of cuffs that are brutally stiff, very high up the leg but were free to flex forward. Straps stop forward crush of ankle as well as assist the velco plate to lift and separate from the ski once ankle is past a set point. Oddly enough, I think it only released once. Velco is not an exact science unfortunately. Also used these boots on non releasable plates with similar straps

 

Just so its not part of the discussion..the plate material was used because of it's extreme low cost for experimentation and it's ease to work with using basic power tools.

 

 

 

[jercrane]

Wow I am now 100% convinced @Horton has a horrible job. This crew can debate anything. :D

I just thought his setup was funny and looked super sketchy to me. Sarcasm does not translate to text.

 

you guys are a trip

[Wish]

@jercrane This time of year, anything is a discussion. ? And oddly enough his ankle did not break. His foot did which makes it all the more interesting

[bishop8950]

Agree, no set up eliminates injury. It’s about likelihood and risk

 

There are different types of skiers with different skier levels and fall tendencies. This will impact their injury statistics.

 

There are different types of crashes where the skier may be fine in any set up or better off in a particular set up.

 

I think we all need to figure out what is best for us. Jamie B told me he was convinced he would not hurt his ankles in Fogmans. He based this on how he skied and the type of falls he took. I trust his view in this to this day. But I broke my front ankle twice in Fogmans and am convinced I would have been better off in double rubber or reflex. I will never ski in a double hardshell single plate or fixed plate again. The most common fall I take is stuffing the tip in my off side turn which really loads up your ankles. If the heals can’t lift independently your chance of ankle injury is higher IMO. I have since taken this fall in Reflex and it released perfectly, my Fogmans would not have. This said in the tumble behind the boat falls the Fogmans release great and might be more safe than my Reflex/Runber set up but I have those falls once So rarely I have chosen a different set up.

[PatM]

@JackQ You mentioned the vast majority of achilles tears that you witnessed have been on hardshells, which I don't doubt. For me it has been just the opposite. The most achilles tears I have witnessed in the past few years have been in rubber bindings, including the T-Factor. So as you mentioned nothing is 100% safe.

[Chef23]

Skiing is extreme and what Joel and frankly anyone that runs 39 and beyond does takes it to another step. I would never put myself in that set of bindings but I was a deep 35 skier on a good day. Personally I want releasable bindings but I can also see the thought process of having both feet in. While the falls are much slower and the lever shorter snowboards don't release. I never hurt myself on a snowboard. Interesting statistic the incident of snowboard injuries vs snow ski injuries per 1000 ski days used to be almost identical but different type of injuries. Not sure if that is still accurate.

[oldjeep]

At the point you build something like that - why not just through bolt them to a plate and bolt the plate down. Seems like a lot of work for something that looks hokey as heck.

[BraceMaker]

@oldjeep

 

They're on plates. I'm not sure if he has any internal hardware but in theory the perimeter method is probably better despite being hokey.

 

If you were engineering a boot to specifically bolt down to a plate for waterskiing it would have a flange around the perimeter to screw up into from below the plate.

 

 

[BraceMaker]

I think they're all just pop riveted on from the bottom/inside out.

[oldjeep]

Ah, couldn't see plate on phone. I wonder how long until someone mounts some bomber bindings and downhill ski boots on a waterski. I suppose the issue is the lack of space between the boots.

[BrennanKMN]

If I am not mistaken, I am pretty sure I read somewhere where Joel said those were snow ski boots.

[oldjeep]

Could be, don't recognize them. Does look like they used to have a rear cuff spoiler on them

[jimski]

Maybe he needs a reflex sponsor

[TomH]

Those are just some hacked up Cabrio-style (tongue vs overlap closure) downhill boots, probably old Dalbellos. The plus for those in a waterski setting would be that they have a much more tunable forward flex as opposed to traditional overlap boots. The tongue you install on those boots (can get them in different stiffnesses) can drastically alter the forward flex, while not having much impact to the lateral stiffness of the rest of the boot.

[Horton]

I feel like it's pretty much my job to say that I strongly discourage anyone mounting non-releasable hard shell boots. If anybody wants to copy Joel's system and they spiral compound fracture every bone below their hips and never walk again it's their own fault.

[skialex]

He must have a better and more direct ski feeling under the feet as these boots are bottomless and the liners sit directly on the plates.

[andjules]

What's interesting to me is that when Joel first came on the scene several years back, he was wearing a helmet for slalom. On the surface, that may seem like a slow attitude swing from overcautious to undercautious, but I suspect there's a lot more nuance to it in terms of self-knowledge and cost/benefit.

[Horton]

Joel is a super nice guy. I think the world of him and I'm super proud that he got a World Championship. His bindings on the other hand I believe our cataclysmic mistake.

[richfoster]

@brucebutterfield ????

[MDB1056]

+1 for @JackQ - tfactors are fabulous

[liquid d]

How is the plate attached..if it's just solid interlok? that's fine ...mine is very similar. both feet in or both feet out is the only way to go...along with... it better release with a catastrophic out the front.

[BraceMaker]

@liquid d its attached to the ski with screws.

[VONMAN]

With all the screw holes in the ski, whats the worst that could happen?

[ScottScott]

The angle brackets attach the boot to a plate (looks like using rivets from the bottom of the plate, possibly bolts from bottom with nuts on top,) plate attached to ski with regular bolts into the inserts. No extra hole or screws into ski.

[Wish]

Check out his latest facebook post. Made that 41 look pretty reasonable in them thar boots. And his comment at the end suggest the boots are a work in progress. Regardless of his boot choice, I can't think of a better ambassador for our sport..well, maybe a few others. But he's upper echelon for sure.

[skialex]

Joel’s video is awesome, but the rear boot is not yellow as in the above picture, either a black shell or a cuffless black liner.. can not really tell by watching it on my phone

[ozski]

Caldwell can also smoke 41 at 34.

[hammerski]

Broke my ankle in double d3 leverage rubber boots that didn’t release in 2011. 3 years to be able to run short line again, never fully recovered. Mike Suyderhoud told me he uses Vaseline in his bindings. So now I use reflex Goode front, rubber boot rear with Vaseline, the crashes so far, full and quick release, no injuries. For those that can’t do a rear toe, viable option. Hope that helps someone else!

[skialex]

@hammerski I knew a guy who was using Vaseline in his rubber boots as a safer option. It is better though to use silicone grease, feels and looks the same, but not petroleum based. Vaseline is petroleum based and will heart boots rubber sooner or later. Silicone grease is used widely in scuba diving to treat rubber gear parts.

[ALPJr]

World Champion.

[Coopline]

Hey Guys new here but interested coz of recent incident. Thinking I agree nothing gives 100% protection but looking for best option. MOB sounds like the one for me. Interested in opinions.

13m,55k. Water a little rollie, pushed the nose offside turn, lost the tail, then grabbed again. When it grabbed snap. Tib and Fib, Tib spiral from knee all the way into ankle. Surgery, pin from knee into ankle, screws etc. Major bummer.

Rarely crash. Over 50 and mostly can avoid especially in training. Wasn't out of control into the turn and now its a whole new world.

Radar Vapor closed toe binding. Rear kicker. Never heard about keeping the top laces loose. Was always a little sus on how i might come out but so rarely crash. My Mistake. Almost never through the wakes these days. I now think losing the tail when pressure is right over the ski is the most dangerous anyway. Need some protection for this.

Not sure if loose top laces would have saved me? Don't know but hoping twisting release of MOB would have?