Whisper Fin for the "Big Guys"

[Mortyski]

Hello Ballers,

 

I'm stuck in the house like most people, so I started dreaming about water skiing like most people on this forum.

 

As identified on a different thread I own a 71 inch Lithium Senate that I will not trade for a "Sanitized 69 Lithium Senate (COVID-19 free) and my wife’s Apple Pie, you will need to get ice cream, and I will even throw in her ancient family recipe for Hungarian Stuffed Cabbage."

 

I reached out to @SkiJay on his Whisper fin website and got amazing customer service from the man himself.

 

My 31 year old son skis on a Whisper Fin that he loves so my question to Jay was how to configure the Whisper Fin for more "fully grown" people. Jay had already given me the secret to a two-wing configuration that skied great for big guys, but with my son's enthusiasm for the Whisper Fin I wanted to see if that fin would work for me too at 250 lbs on a 71-inch ski. I used to be a decent skier, but time and weight caught up to me. Mike Ferrero once called me the second-best big skier he had ever coached, leaving the number one position for Mike Hazelwood. I'll take that compliment, but those passes I showed Mr. Ferrero at Shalom Park are long gone now, and Mr. Ferrero likely only coached two big skiers LOL.

 

I have attached a photo from Jay himself. This is what he recommended, and he gave me his permission to share this information online. Great customer service I appreciate it Jay.

 

The key points are as identified in my Q&A with Jay are:

 

Both wings in the diagram are standard sized wings, and that usually adds enough additional support. If the skier has one large wing (available from Goode), mount it at the back and run it flat or at a very low angle like 5° or less.

 

Jay is happy to drill the holes for a customer upon request, but it's a simple process. Once the fin is mounted with the front and rear index marks equal, place one side of the wing on the fin so the leading edge is located according to the diagram, mark the front hole with a pencil then drill it with a 3/16" bit. Mount the wing on the fin using the front hole, then mark the rear hole so the wing is parallel with the base of the ski. Remove the wing and drill the rear hole with a 1/4" bit (to allow for some adjustment). Screw the wing on parallel to the ski's base and you're done.

 

The diagram shows the back wing mounted at about 9°. This is excessive below 35 off. Normally, a double wing setup adds enough drag that both wings should be run as close to 0° as possible. Most big skiers don't need the braking effect of a steep wing anyway. Only use more than 0° of rear wing angle if you are generating lots of width and are too fast into every turn.

 

The bindings should be mounted as far forward as possible, unless the tip isn't supportive enough when fully engaged (very rarely the case).

 

The way Jay explained it to me is: When a skier is heavier than the weight range recommended for a ski, the narrow tail gets overloaded and runs too deep in the water. Remember how we put the brakes on when approaching the dock too fast: we dig the ski's tail deeper into the water to slow down. The goal of running a double wing setup is to give the tail of the ski more surface area and lift, allowing the ski to run flatter through the water. This lower tip attitude increases the ski's overall surface area and support, reduces drag for easier acceleration, and allows the ski to track and turn more within its designed performance envelope.

 

I'm not taking any credit for the details here; I'm an engineer and loved tweaking fins and bindings in the past but now I'm only smart enough to know who to ask...thanks again Jay

 

I'm looking forward to giving this a go, when the snow melts and the lakes aren't frozen or locked out over the virus.

 

Stay healthy everyone!

 

Mortyski

 

 

[klindy]

Thanks @Mortyski & @SkiJay, excellent information.

[Mortyski]

@klindy you're welcome...always glad to help out the "big guy" club

[jhughes]

@Mortyski what lines and speed are you running?

[UWSkier]

I ran twin wing both parallel on my '16 Probuild. Made a massive difference in my ability to move up on the ski and turn it without too much bevel engagement and porpoising out of my offside. Loved it.

[Mortyski]

@jhughes I haven’t had the Whisper Fin in a course....the lake in front of my place has trucks beside the ice fishing tents...I suspect the water is as smooth as glass (with snow on it).

 

@UWSkier great to hear. I’m really excited about the Whisper Fin. Conventional wisdom has been move the fin forward and the ski turns better...the Whisper Fin is very far forward so maybe I can take the mooring lights off my 71 inch and rip through the course like the good old days...I’m 65 so the good old days were a long long time ago and I need all the help I can get now!

[igkya]

@Mortyski what speed and line lengths did you run prior to this new setup?

[Mortyski]

@igkya Hi I have not tried this new set up....I don't have a Whisper Fin yet but plan to assuming I can get my ski back from Montana where we have property and ski.

 

I live in the Calgary area on a lake just east of Calgary and used to ski every day possible on the slalom course we set up in the lake, however that lake is now overcrowded and sadly polluted.

 

I have been working internationally for the last nine years and skied extremely infrequently, last summer for example I did not have a single set. I've probably had 6 sets on the lithium senate and maybe 25 sets in the last nine years but I have skied enough in the past before that to know what a ski should feel like. I ski at 34 mph 28 to 35 off on the lithium senate.... I can't risk an injury so I don't really even try hard anymore and as my three sons say I "drop my purse" a lot. I'm not willing to make the commitment again required for shorter lines at my age.

 

I'm hoping that the Whisper Fin can get the 71 inch to turn quickly and bring me back to the sport again.

[Roller]

I have been using my Whisper Fin on my Radar Vapor. I can't say enough how great it is to ski with. @SkiJay hit a home run with the Whisper Fin. I'm sure the two wing system for the big dudes on that fin will work awesome as well @SkiJay knows his stuff.

[Hipsup]

Does this apply to standard fins as well or just the wf?

[Ed_Johnson]

I remember, some years a go, Chet Raley and @Chad_Scott were using a Mini-Ventral Wing in that same position with great results. Dave Goode was selling these. Don't really know what ever happened to that trend.

 

Wing info begins at 2:58

 

[Mortyski]

@Hipsup the double wing set up works on all fins. What I am trying to do is since the double wing is used to support big skiers on small skis get the much improved turn ability of the Whisper Fin on a large ski. In my case a 71 inch lithium senate. I’m not sure what the ventral wing will do and it is a lot smaller than a normal wing so it will likely not support the weight as much. I had @SkiJay set up my Radar fin with the double wings and I really liked it. Since he is such a guru and the Whisper Fin is now on the market with very positive reviews I want to try it on my 71 inch ski so I can have support and turn ability too. I don’t think the main goal of the ventral fin was support but I don’t know. I’ve never tried a ventral fin and I also don’t know how to set it up. The double wing set up as recommended by @Skijay has the front wing at zero degrees as it’s there for support not braking and the back wing is set less aggressively since there is some unwanted drag from the front wing.

[UCFskier]

this might be a dumb question... but in the rule book how many wings are you allowed to put on a fin?

[Horton]

infinite

[Mortyski]

@Horton Do you know if anyone has tried three wings? One is good two is better, so is three even better still kind of thinking. Put all three wings on horizontal with minimum drag and get all the lift in the tail. It’s the engineer in me asking.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Mortyski I experimented with multiple ventral wings and various sizes several years back. Biggest difference I found was it was harder to get width with the additional wings, but I was looking for performance at 38 as opposed to lift on a big ski. I ended up going back to a single wing after a month or 2.

 

The only way to find out if 3 wings helps you is to try it. Even at 0 deg, you will get drag from the traditional wings.

[UWSkier]

@Mortyski how much do you weigh? For me at 255lbs on a 69.5" Vapor Pro going mostly 34 MPH, the double wing setup was a definite improvement. However, since moving to the 71" Senate Lithium, I haven't found myself lacking any support or getting too much bevel engagement which would lead to an occasional porpoising offside turn on the Vapor.

[Mortyski]

@Bruce_Butterfield thanks for making contact. I'm that engineer guy from Canada that knows @A_B who was working on the load cell/GPS water ski evaluator... Lisa 2 We communicated a couple of times by e-mail.

 

Where my head is take my 71 inch lithium for early season training, mount the Whisper fin and the second wing as you slow the boat down and get back in the course. When you are back up to speed maybe take off the second fin and make the back wing a little more angle. I don't think I want to try 3 wings I was just curious to see if anyone has tried that.

 

@UWSkier I weigh about the same as you...maybe a bit more....I'm solid with a gut....I know the picture is the wrong sport but you get the idea See my note above for early season training, what I find is when I slow down the boat I used to sink especially on a 69. Our season is so short in Canada that by the time things are back to normal in the course the season is over.

 

[klindy]

@UCFskier as Horton said there is no limit to the number of wings or their position. The only thing it can't do is adjust while you're skiing. You can adjust things between passes but not while in the course.

[UWSkier]

You lose a small amount of smear with the double wing. I had to bump my fin slightly forward to compensate. I suppose you could fart around with adding and removing the second wing seasonally but I am finding the older I get, the more I want a "set it and forget it" experience. ?

[Mortyski]

@UWSkier I haven't tried the Whisper Fin yet but it will be quite a bit further forward than anything else I have ever used so hopefully lack of smear is not an issue.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Mortyski here's a few of the more unique wing configurations I tried. This was in 2011 and my memory is a little fuzzy,they were all "different", but not really any better.

 

 

 

 

 

[A_B]

@Bruce_Butterfield did you try a bike rack?

 

[Ed_Johnson]

For a long time I skied on Goode skis with the forward Mini-Wing and the Larger Ventral in the normal wing spot. It worked well in the fact that it kept the nose down coming off the Apex to the Hook-up, especially at short line...Also, the Ventrals worked well because they seemed to have less drag than normal wings.

 

Later I switched to the Sans Rival which had a Carbon Fiber Fin, and with the flex of the fin, the nose automatically stayed down, so I no longer used the previous setup. The same is true of my current Denali C75.

 

PS: Way back then I also tried the 3 wing setup, but did not find any advantage to it.

 

 

[A_B]

Getting ready to hit the water with the new 71" Senate Lithium. This Whisper Fin seems like it may have some merit to help the big rigs turn better, which is always a problem when under duress in the course. I have tried the Slotfin in the past, but it didn't feel right all the way at the back of the ski, and when moved forward, it seemed to roll off edge behind the boat.

 

Are people running a standard wing or something like a Schnitz wing on the WFin?

Multiple wings just seems like it would create a lot more drag, which I create myself.

 

AB

[Ed_Johnson]

@A_B ... Have tried several wings with the WF and found a "small" Std. wing works best. Amount of degrees depends on water temp. Above 70*= 5* of wing, 60*to 70* = 6* and below 60* = 7* of wing. Plus the farther forward you have your bindings, and the farther forward you have the fin and shallower, the more it will smear. When the ski starts to feel unstable while lining up with the course, you probably have it right.

 

PS: Remember, you can only move the WF in 2 dimensions, DFT fore and aft, and depth up and down. The index marks must remain parallel to the bottom of the ski for the water to properly go through the flukes !!!

 

 

[A_B]

Thanks @Ed_Johnson I think I have a couple of the SS wings laying around somewhere so will start smaller first. Any month now our weather might break!

[Mortyski]

Just an update for everyone. I went back to Jay again on some more big guy questions….I thought everyone reading this thread would like to see this Q&A.

 

I think Jay’s explanation makes a lot of sense. I know I understand better what is going on now.

 

My questions with a little background to Jay was:

 

A buddy of mine is now fully figured at about 280 lbs. He's a full and paid up member of the big guy club, I think he's a past president.

 

He, like a lot of big guys has a 71-inch Radar lithium senate. I've seen him ski off the dock into deep 35 and brain fart...as far as I could tell his technique was much deeper than his score. He was slightly lighter when I saw him ski probably about 240-250 lbs and he was skiing on a 69-inch Radar Senate. He had only one wing on his fin.

 

He's asking me about the turnability of the Whisperfin on a big ski.

 

Do you think he will need the 2-fin set up?

 

Do you set the fin differently for big skis that you want the most turn ability out of the ski since the ski is longer to begin with and long skis don’t turn as fast as shorter skis with everything else the same?

 

Do you have a lot of big guys using your fin?

 

My friend is a “fin tweaker”, and a passionate water skier. He just wants some more background on what to expect

 

 

Jay’s response by e-mail to me was:

 

There's no absolute answer to your questions because not all skiers ride their skis the same. But I definitely have a lot of big skiers using the WhisperFin because it makes any ski of any size turn easier, regardless of skier weight.

 

Big skiers tend to overwhelm the narrow, unsupportive tail of the ski, driving it deep into the water. This causes the tip to ride high making tip-engagement difficult. Without proper tip-engagement, the ski will always be difficult to turn. Moving the bindings all the way forward moves the skier's weight forward over the widest, most supportive part of the ski, improving tip-attitude and tip engagement. But the further forward we move, the longer the distance is from the bindings back to the tail, giving the tail more leverage against sliding (smearing). When the tail won't slide enough, the ski turns like a school bus.

 

Here's where the WhisperFin can help. To get the ski to smear nice tight radius turns with the bindings forward, the fin needs to be smaller. But reducing the size of a standard fin reduce acceleration. The WhisperFin's small surface area frees up the tail's ability to smear without losing any power to accelerate due to its patented turbulators.

 

If moving the bindings all the way forward still isn't enough to get the ski to ride with a low enough tip attitude, then adding a second wing to the fin can help level out the ski even more. When using two wings, the front wing should be parallel to the ski and you'll need to reduce the angle of the back wing too. Normally, a double wing setup adds enough drag that both wings should be run as close to 0° as possible. If more drag is needed to check speed into turns, then add a little angle to the back wing.

 

Two standard wings usually provide enough support, but you can experiment with the sizes of your wings to optimize the ski's performance. The front wing can be a little ventral. The back wing can be a large Goode wing. Or in extreme cases, both wings can be large Goode wings.

 

 

 

[Mortyski]

@vegaskid I saw your post on the 71 inch Lithium Senate thread....yes 250# is fine for the 71 inch Lithium Senate....you might want to have a read on this thread too since I firmly believe the Whisper Fin will improve the turn ability of any ski and a 71 inch ski is quite long. I have owned the 71 inch HO Triumph in the past as well and couldn't get it to turn as quickly as the 69 inch Triumph that I also owned. The Whisper Fin will likely allow us to ski on the longer skis and turn like the shorter ski. Also there is a lot of detail here on the two wing set up you were asking about.

[Mortyski]

Update: a fully grown friend of mine has had some time on his 71 inch senate with the Whisper Fin. He maintains the ski turns faster. Hallelujah, this is exactly what we are looking for. Take a big ski that just by its size will not turn as fast as the same ski in a smaller size....enjoy the starting of the larger ski...keep the glide of the larger ski and put on a Whisper Fin so the ski turns much faster. We are no longer handicapped by the big ski. I know from my past owning 69 and 71 inch versions of the same ski that the 71 turned like a school bus compared to the 69. Thanks @SkiJay