SurePath unboxing

[Horton]

[Horton]

I tried to do all the setup alone and in a hurry last night without reading the instructions. It almost worked.

 

This morning had one cup of black coffee while I read the instructions. I then set up the base station in about 15 minutes. 10 minutes for the permanent mount, 3 minutes technical stuff and 2 minutes patting myself on the back.

 

@rico came over later to help me map the course and test the system. We might have spent 10 minutes mapping the course. Next time will will do it in 5.

 

I couple of clicks later we where done and seeing our EXACT path down the lake. AMAZING!

 

[Horton]

@Jtim3032 I want to have the base phone and base "magic box" ( Receiver? ) farther from the base antenna so I can have them out of the elements.

 

Can I use a longer cable from the base antenna to the magic box? What is the spec on that cable and what is a logical length limit?

[BraceMaker]

What sort of range does this have. If I have a course 3 miles from home does the base work?

[Horton]

@Jtim3032 can give the definitive answer but I believe there's a 10-kilometer range.

[Jtim3032]

@Horton a straight SMA male to SMA female extension is what you need. Do NOT get anything that says RP in the connector name (e.g. RP-SMA male) as these are "reverse polarity". One customer is using a 50' extension with no problems and I suspect you could even go to 100'. You can also get a TNC to SMA adapter to use at the antenna which would allow the extension to go straight on to the antenna. If it's appropriate I can give example Amazon links.

[Jtim3032]

@BraceMaker @Horton is correct, the generally accepted limit is 10km (about 6 miles) before accuracy begins to degrade although at some stage I intend to test at longer distances.

[Not_The_Pug]

We have been using Sure Path at Western Regionals. It is great as a driver to get that immediate feedback on your boat path for Slalom and Jump.

[RAWSki]

Do you need two entire systems or just an extra boat unit if you have a two lake site?

[Jtim3032]

@RAWSki you just need an additional rover unit for a second boat (assuming the boats are used concurrently and you don't want to move kit between boats).

[skierjp]

@Jtim3032 can you give us the price and the availability? Does the price get better if multiple complete units are purchased?

[Jtim3032]

@skierjp prices are on the web site. Lead time at present is up to 4 weeks. DM me via the web site.

[Jimbo]

Does the additional Rover come with another Android phone as well? Can't quite tell from the website. Asking as our lake is purchasing and would love to have the system in my boat all the time.

[Jtim3032]

@Jimbo already replied to your email, but for other readers, yes it does.

[Horton]

@Jtim3032 can you explain what the offset number means?

[Horton]

So unfortunately because I've been injured last couple of weeks I've hardly gotten to use my SurePath system. Yesterday was the first time I drove a short line skier with the system and it was addictively fun. I realize the purpose of this system is to improve driving quality and all the official stuff but for me it just makes driving super fun because I'm trying to get the zeros down the path.

 

Gates and greenballs suck but this is my best "score" so far.

 

 

 

[disland]

How hard is it to move the gear from boat to boat. Is sharing with ski buddies viable?

[Horton]

@disland it takes about as long to gather up my best, gloves and ski to go to another boat as it does to move the surepath to another boat.

[jayski]

@Horton just off-siding that poor skier!! lol, well except 1 ball

 

Why would your goal to be zero's across the board?

[Horton]

@jayski it is a game. I want all 0s.

 

As for the offsides, I think that shows am picking him up early. IDK. I think is is a good thing.

 

@Chad_Scott comments?

[jayski]

@Horton when I got mine in spring we had a lot of talk between our usual senior drivers and other reputable ones about the numbers and what we should strive for as drivers to be within tolerance AND provide a great pull for the skiers. will be interesting, to see what people do with all this data, gunning for zero's is not going to equate to a skier having the feel of a "good pull" or give them a "good pull"

[kurt]

@jayski , can you elaborate? Are you worried that you are going to have frieght train pulls and not a dance with the skier?

Our first tournament we had this past week and for some of the drivers it was their first time using it.

I made sure that they understood that at least for this time it was a tool for the drivers to see where they were.

It is far better than video for seeing where you are.

[Horton]

@kurt you can drive with the skier AND be straight. Staying with the skier should always be on #1 but with surepath you can learn to also be pretty straight. OR you can ignore the skier and just be straight and that is awful for the skier.

[lakeaustinskier]

I've been using SurePath for about about 6 weeks and this system will absolutely 100% make me a better driver. The first time I used the system all of my tendencies were immediately exposed. Especially when I'm being taken at the pregates and gates.

[Jtim3032]

@Horton the offset figure is the average of all the deviation readings measured for the pass. Although at first glance you might think it tells you whether you are generally left or right, the course is actually quite a long distance and it is easily possible to be significantly left in the first half of the course, then significantly right in the second half of the course and get an overall offset near to zero. So I would say it's a useful "at a glance" number but treat with caution.

[Jtim3032]

@Horton @jayski regarding apparent "offsides", under the current rules, the numbers displayed are the average of the two highest readings towards the skier in a zone from 10 metres before the buoy to 10 metres after the buoy and so does not necessarily show where the boat was when the skier is actually at the buoy. This was done to pick up so called "pattern" driving and it makes weaving show up in the cumulatives very quickly indeed. If you want to know where the boat is at the guide buoys, then use "Training Mode" and this gives you a better idea of whether you are offsiding or not. Obviously don't use in competition :)

[Alberto Soares]

@Horton - I am glad you finally decided to use metrical system :)

[Horton]

@Alberto Soares yeah.... @Jtim3032 has a setting in there that changes everything to inches. Turns out it's just a prank setting. The system gives you metric no matter what setting you choose. @Jtim3032 is just making fun of me.

[Laz]

@Jtim3032 Another question:

 

When I first heard about this system, I assumed the cumulative number would be total deviation from centre. In the example above from @Horton, the total deviation is 16.1cm. What am I missing?

 

Also, I noted from the Canadian rule book, a record pass has to have the boat within 20cm of centre, on the side favouring the skier. That seems pretty generous.

[MISkier]

@Laz, the AWSA rules say that you can be up to 20cm off at any one buoy. That is a fair amount and it’s likely designed to account for a sudden aggressive hit from the skier. But, the maximum cumulative amount of deviation starts to decrease significantly as you progress through the course. I guess the theory is that you get surprised early and adjust to the skier quickly. For AWSA, the maximum total deviation is 49cm over all six buoys. So, you can’t take 20cm at each and every buoy.

 

I suspect the Canadian rules are similar and likely both are aligned with IWSF for world record purposes.

 

I think the calculation for deviation is a mixture of deviation for and against the skier (positive versus negative). So, the final deviation is the sum of those offsets, not the sum of their absolute values.

[MISkier]

@Laz, from the AWSA rule book:

 

 

[Jtim3032]

@Laz first you have to remember that for each of the deviation numbers at each buoy, positive is towards the skier and negative away from the skier (ie not left or right). Then the cumulative is literally the straight sum of the individual deviations at each buoy, ie 4.7 - 1.2-3.1-0.6-3.7-2.8 = -6.7

[Jtim3032]

@Laz @MISkier in fact these are from the IWWF Rule book. Sections 1.09 and 8.15 are the ones to look up regarding boat path and deviation tolerances. Here is a link to the latest IWWF Rules https://iwwf.sport/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/World-Waterski-Rules-2020_V4.pdf

[MISkier]

@Laz,

 

Here is the section from the IWWF rule book at the link @Jtim3032 shared. The table is very similar to AWSA and the deviation calculation is basically what I posted previously.

 

 

[Laz]

That’s very helpful. I’m meeting with our provincial organization this week and hopefully they will agree to order one.

[Horton]

 

[Horton]

Somewhere @Jtim3032 explain that in tournament mode the reading is the greatest deviation 10m before and after the boat guide (or something like that ). Is anyone using training mode? If so why?

[Horton]

I am totally guilty of having the short term memory of an earthworm. Am I the only one who would like to see a sSurePath FAQ?

 

@Chad_Scott instead of watching Oprah re-runs all day maybe you could think about this.

[Chad_Scott]

@horton. I believe that those increments are a work in progress. The actual plot for a record is not when the boat is at the boat guides but rather when the skier is at the buoy. So far as a video review goes that is probably three to four frames after the boat guides. I believe that is what they are plotting at the 10 meter points. I know there are discussions working to narrow that down a little more than it is currently set

[Chad_Scott]

@horton. Let’s work on your boat positioning at the pre gates and the gates. Little too much movement lol

[klindy]

Just for a little clarity, The 'individual buoy' offset of 20cm is included in both the AWSA and IWWF rules. The cumulative deviation is in the AWSA rule book ONLY for record verification. And the cumulative deviation is in the IWWF rule book for use when an approved boat path monitoring system is used (I assume Surepath is either approved or soon will be). I know IWWF was developing the language of what constitutes an "approved system".

 

 

The difference in the rules is fine since a class C tournament doesn't require end course video and a class E/L/R tournament has a couple 'options' to monitor end course. As these systems become more and more prevalent, I'd expect the specifics in the rules to be refined as well.

 

Great system and I think it will help improve the driving overall.

[Horton]

@Chad_Scott yes my path needs work. I love SurePath because it is going to make me better.

 

Seriously, without making more work for @Jtim3032 could we compile a FAQ?

[skiinxs]

Here is a good one for the FAQ's. If you get a string of exactly 20cm variances, it means that there was no GPS fix signal for those balls. If you look at the breadcrumb screen you will see that there was no signal. That may confuse some people, I think it would be better if it listed something like "NS" at each ball to indicate there was no signal. Another cool feature is the times at all balls are saved along with the path data. Could be very useful if the scorer didn't get a time and the previous time has already scrolled off the ZO system. It also helps to give a redundant check on times and proves that Zero Off isn't simply making them up:) The two systems usually match, are sometimes off by .01 and rarely off by .02

[Stevie Boy]

Looking to the future, do we think that, to qualify for tournament driving, you would have to be provisional , until you have driven X amount of competitions within a prescribed tolerance using Sure Path, or something along those lines ?

I know tolerances are already in place, but Sure Path is instant feedback.

How many off days for a driver to be down graded ? Unfortunately it can happen.

[klindy]

@Stevie Boy Those are good questions. There has been some limited discussion on how to objectively monitor drivers in the past but I would personally hesitate to use this type of tool to determine any kind of downgrade. I can see it being used as a way to collect data for some kind of 'experience ranking'. This would be similar to a skiers score where you can collect data on how many pulls a driver had at certain line lengths and what their variance may have been.

 

That said, I think the best 'first step' to get systems like this in practical use are to use them in real time to determine if the pass was within the tolerance in the rules or not. From listening to the judges and my experience, this would have the biggest immediate impact.

 

 

As the comments above also infer, there will also likely be a learning curve until drivers can learn how to provide a reasonable pull and sill be in tolerance. In other words, some drivers may have to adjust or relearn their driving style to adapt - just like we had to relearn skiing styles when different speed control systems came out. All of this will likely make things more consistent over time which is probably a good thing.

[MattP]

@skiinxs They are working on integrating the times into the scoring program. There is a PC program that will display them currently. I’ve used it a few times and helped with tweaks. Still some time before it is fully integrated.

 

Since surepath uses GPS coordinates to set the course personally I believe that if it is used on site that the coordinates should be manually entered into ZO for the course mapping. This will in theory provide the best pull with ZO and not mapping based on someone idling and pressing a button through the gates.

[disland]

If Surepath would qualify as a survey for class L events that would be a major game changer. Paying a survey guy or getting a TC out to do the survey is a significant cost.

[MattP]

@disland how I understand it is that it can already be done.

[disland]

@klindy can you confirm that surepath can be used for class L survey?

[rico]

Home made puck holder with a go pro handle bar mount.