Administrators Horton Posted June 7, 2021 Administrators Share Posted June 7, 2021 Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller aussiemc Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 1/4, the ski was not pointed across course (and or in the water) after the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 1/4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted June 7, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 7, 2021 Video is 3.5 hours long. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 Start at 3:03:40 for the slo-mo replay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted June 7, 2021 Supporting Member Share Posted June 7, 2021 @aussiemc where the ski is pointed is not part of the criteria. Are you suggesting that implies something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 The question is when does the skier “fall”. A fall occurs when 1) the skier looses the handle, 2) the skier doesn’t have at least one foot on the ski OR 3) the skiers weight is not primarily supported by his skier and is ultimately able to regain skiing position. (Rules 8.06 & 8.07). In this case he has the handle and has at least one foot on the ski. But his weight is not supported by the ski as he skids across the water. And he clearly doesn’t regain skiing position. So the fall occurs as soon as the ski is out of the water. A “miss” on the other hand is going inside or displacing the buoy. In this case I don’t think there’s an argument about whether he got outside the buoy - he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 @klindy , 3:30:40 is kind of at the very end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 For 1/2, all that @klindy pointed out plus the skier gets after the buoy inside the line of buoys that the scored buoy belongs to. Or something like that… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted June 7, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted June 7, 2021 @lpskier the link I posted should start you right before Fred's 41 pass Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted June 7, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted June 7, 2021 This is really interesting because he has the handle for sure and is supported by the ski for at least 15 feet past the ball before his body hits the water. I say the physics are such that he must have passed inside the ball line for the 1/2 even though we can not see it from the video. Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted June 7, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 7, 2021 1/4. @klindy said my exact reasoning for my call. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted June 7, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted June 7, 2021 @klindy the fall happens at least 15 feet past the ball. At 41 off how does a skier travel 15 feet past the ball without the bindings passing back inside the ball line? He has not fallen yet and is likely already back inside. Next frame here is the legal end of his ride Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted June 7, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 7, 2021 I agree with @Horton. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Kelvin Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 The official score was 3.5. The judgement of reasonable minds may differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted June 7, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 7, 2021 @Horton, in that last frame when he is hitting the water, he is directly perpendicular to the boat with a tight line. He is fully extended and the ski is not turning (still going downcourse). His arm is outstretched over his head. I estimate he is extended at least 8 feet from handle to ski. He only needs about 4 feet to be completely outside the buoy llne. I don’t think he crossed the 1/2 buoy quadrant. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted June 7, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted June 7, 2021 I am sticking to my argument but I am ready for someone to prove me wrong with some mathy stuff. I would love to see some drone footage or down the ball line footage. if you listen to Robert Hazelwood and Tony at 1/4 speed they sound SUPER drunk. Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted June 7, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted June 7, 2021 Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 It’s really close @horton and my judgement call says 1/4. I’ll accept any other reasonable 1/2 call too. Either way this is a perfect example of how it IS possible to score 1/4. True that the exact timing is important. Absolutely certain that is was on the ski, with the handle AND outside the buoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted June 7, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 7, 2021 That angle convinces me of the 1/4. If you are looking for a clue in the spray, don't be persuaded by the spray that is emanating from his calves as he makes his final contact with the water. It is creating a spray a foot or so closer toward the camera from the spray created by the ski. I see it even better in motion. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller JackQ Posted June 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 7, 2021 @MISkier ,He is not perfectly perpendicular to the boat, he was close but not there at the apex of the turn, but 10 feet later he is bleeding off speed but the boat is not and therefore narrower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted June 7, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 7, 2021 @JackQ, about a foot or two later, he is on his back and that pass is over. When he starts bleeding speed, he has been unsupported by the ski for a bit. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted June 7, 2021 Supporting Member Share Posted June 7, 2021 In that frame that @Horton has captured, his bindings are well into the 1/2 zone. They only have to cross the buoy line. BUT I think the argument here is when exactly has he fallen? One of the other perspectives makes it seem like that moment is long after he has lost skiing position (which is never regained). In the end, it's too close to be sure it's a 1/4, so I'd call 1/2. But it's close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted June 7, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 7, 2021 @Than_Bogan, it is not the bindings that determine it. It is the "front foot of the skier". So, the amount of space from the skier's ankle (which is not the foot) to the top of the binding at the shin is not valid. From the ankle below to the ski is the portion that counts and it might not be inside the buoy line. Otherwise, we will start to see bindings up to just below the kneecap. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted June 7, 2021 Supporting Member Share Posted June 7, 2021 I meant his *entire* bindings, which likely include his foot. :) If you believe that position can happen that far after the ball at 41 without the feet inside the line, then we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Bruce_Butterfield Posted June 8, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 8, 2021 based on the snapshots horton posted, its definitely 1/2. NFW you can be on a 38 0r shorter rope and be in that position past the buoy and not be inside the buoy line. I absolutely love Monday morning quarterbacking and internet judging! :D If it was easy, they would call it Wakeboarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Kelvin Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 @horton, " I would love to see some drone footage or down the ball line footage." Shhhh!! Next thing you know, this will be a requirement at all record tournaments :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted June 8, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted June 8, 2021 @Bruce_Butterfield agree but second guessing how it could be 1/4. 99.9999% sure it is 1/2 but we can not see where the ball line really is. is interesting Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 @Bruce_Butterfield even rocket scientists get it wrong once in a while!! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller JackQ Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 Both tower judges and boat judge, called 2 1/2, the replay official (me) reviewed the TWBC higher resolution slow motion from three different cameras, and there wasn’t definitive evidence to overturn. But a valid debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Bruce_Butterfield Posted June 8, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 8, 2021 Ok so for the internet judges and with the pics that Horton and gloersen posted, the skier has the handle and weight is supported by the ski approximately 15’ past the buoy. Clearly 1/2 from the perspective provided. IMHO the problem is far too many senior judges have never come close to scoring 1/4 and have no clue outside the rule book, of what it is necessary to score 1/4. If it was easy, they would call it Wakeboarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted June 8, 2021 Author Administrators Share Posted June 8, 2021 @JackQ from any of those angles could you see if his feet had moved inside the ball line? My guess is there wasn't. My other assumption is if the math geeks got a hold of this that they would ascertain from the fact the line was tight & the boat had moved down the lake - the boat pulled Fred inside the line. Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Bruce_Butterfield Posted June 8, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 8, 2021 Umm. Why is this a close call? Again from the limited pics he is way past the buoy with a tight line, handle in hand, “in skiing position” , well inside the buoy line. Sorry, I don’t get why this is close. @klindy rocketscientists are wrong more often than we really need to know? If it was easy, they would call it Wakeboarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 From the time he passed the buoy he got more and more laid out and stretched out and his ski got farther and farther from the handle in each frame. I don't think the ski ever started getting closer to the boat. I give 1/4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jimski Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 1/2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 I say 3.5 just based on the near impossibility of the ski remaining outside the buoy line @41 and the skier still supported the ski at that distance past the buoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 @ral typo on the time stamp - 3:03:40. Also, remember the ride is over as soon as he "falls", which is when he's is no longer supported by his ski. Sliding another 50' down the lake is all irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted June 8, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 8, 2021 @klindy What? No point for the dismount??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted June 8, 2021 Supporting Member Share Posted June 8, 2021 @Bruce_Butterfield When the fall occurs is the "discussion." Otherwise I would agree clear 0.5. (I personally still day 0.5, but not CLEAR 0.5 due to when one might declare the fall to have occured.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller disland Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 rule 1.1.2.3.4.5678 lasers at 90 degree angles with GPS pucks for each buoy with video feed to IWWF headquarters where the international panel of judges will relay their decision to the designated on site laser judge, who cant be doing anything else and must be supervised by the chief judge who also cant be judging anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 @Jody_Seal absolutely points for the dismount! Amazing he got the ski outside the buoy in any way at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller markn Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 Freddie's skiing was just amazing. Congrats to him for the win. Super Classy guy and a great diplomat for the sport. Also, there is a video of Mapple at 41 off (at West Palm) falling similarly at 3 ball, sliding on his back at least 15-20 feet and sliding around, somehow getting the ski back between him and the boat and standing up to score 3. Evidently the ride is not over when you fall if you were the GOAT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 1/2. Horton told me to never call 1/4 :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 @markn The rule specifically says it is not a fall "if you regain skiing position". In Mapple's case, he did. In Freddie's case, he never did regain skiing position. Perhaps a questions should where the "fall" actually occurred for Freddie? It happens well before he let go of the handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted June 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 8, 2021 Here where he finally came to a stop, he's no farther in than the buoy waaayyyy back there. He was still advancing on the boat while sliding.....not moving in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted June 9, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 9, 2021 Just me, or my device but I can't see the buoy. Difficult angle to see where he is in comparison to buoy line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted June 9, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 9, 2021 Tie goes to the runner. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted June 9, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted June 9, 2021 @LeonL, you're right. It is hard to see. But, I think it is here (zoom in and see the red circle I added): The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller klindy Posted June 9, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 9, 2021 @lpskier there is no tie. Make a call. In this case I respect those who call 1/2. That said, I would have called it a 1/4 based on where he was when he 'fell' (no longer supported by the ski). In my opinion he was still headed outbound or at best down the course. Where his front binding was located was outside the buoy line in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted June 9, 2021 Baller Share Posted June 9, 2021 @LeonL Yeah, it doesn't come through in this still very well. If you zoom in there are hints of some orange. If you watch the video up to that point it shows a little better. I think @MISkier has the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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