tight laceup vs loosey goosey

[boscoman]

I am skiing a mini course (green balls). My ski is Connelly Aspect. The other day as I was putting on the ski, I cinched down the lace and for some unknown reason, I gave it an extra tug tightening the lace as much as possible. I always try to cinch it down, but this time I think I might have gotten it too tight. You guessed it! I fell, the boot hung on to my foot and the water jerked the ski. I ended up with a distal fibula fx. Ortho says 4-6 weeks in a boot. Question, is there any real good reason to lace the binding tightly? As I said, I did this almost unthinkingly. Next time out, maybe next season, I won't tighten nearly as much.

[ScottScott]

The type of boot it sounds like you have, should be left loose enough that you can kick your ski off at the end of set fairly easily without loosening strings to get it off. A firm tightness is good for control, but it needs to be loose enough that your foot will slip out in a fall. That is the appeal of the release systems, you can have a tight boot (in that case you want it tight enough that the boot won't come in during a fall, allowing the release system to do the work.)

 

Sorry about the injury, hope for a quick recovery and back on the water soonest....with a slightly looser boot.

[2Valve]

Along with Scott, I lace mine (Connelly Sync) just snug and at the end of a set I can kick the ski off. I'm even more diligent after a buddy broke his leg earlier this season with extremely tight laces.

[VermontSkier]

FWIW I run a different boot, radar vapor, but I leave the top laces very loose. I snug them up a little bit, but the boot is laterally stiff and supportive that I feel secure and know I will release every time. I highly recommend the vapor boot.

[BraceMaker]

@boscoman there are advantages and disadvantages to a tight binding, obviously as you found if you want a stiff/supportive binding then you need to be thinking about a release system for safety or double boots. Of course I've seen someone with a too tight rear binding and a too loose front binding do a front foot out rear foot in Tib/Fib fracture with the scorpion pose tail hitting the back of the head splitting open their scalp crash so there are things to consider about double boots as well.

 

In the stiff/supportive theory you have a lot of control over the ski but you are also transmitting all the motions into the ski, good motions, bad motions... all of it. Hard to argue that Joel Howley doesn't have a binding system that transmits all of his efforts to the ski some of that video from his instagram lately shows that he has the leverage on the ski that you can physically see him flex the ski. But then again he is a real athlete and I'm a soft person who has broken a rib 3 of the last 5 seasons crashing so for me a release gets its work out.

[boscoman]

Thanks folks, just trying to make friends with my boot!

[Ski_Dad]

Not sure what boot you have but I have a Radar Boa and I tighten my feet pretty tight but the top part i just do it lightly snug and like others said I can kick off the ski at the end of a set. I had 1OTF this year and I came right out.

[steeliejunkie]

I made the same mistake two seasons ago and had the same injury. I use the Radar Vapor boot and tighten just enough that it still comes off when I want it to, but not so tight that I can break a bone.

[slow]

You can run the new Vapors pretty loose and still feel secure. I had a fairly mlld OTF and came out smoothly.

[Jmoski]

Are your laces bungie cord or static cord?

 

Either way as others have said you want to make sure you can come out of the binding if you crash. Bungie gives you more escapability, but you can over tighten even with bungie laces, one of my ski buddies broken ankle will attest to that.

 

An older binding I had came with both bungie and static cord laces, after seeing a few friends OTF and sprain ankles - I put the bungie laces back on mine.

 

[MDB1056]

I ride double tfactors. Snug them up nice & tight. Even so, they release when needed. Just came out of both in a nice OTF recently. Point is the binding structure has a lot to do with how they'll release even if nice & tight. OK Joel Howley's Frankenboot aside........

[gsm_peter]

FWIW...I usually wear neo socs. They glide out at consistent force all the time. Naked feet seems to be harder to pull out.

 

[boscoman]

On 9/7/2022 at 3:29 PM, steeliejunkie said:

I made the same mistake two seasons ago and had the same injury. I use the Radar Vapor boot and tighten just enough that it still comes off when I want it to, but not so tight that I can break a bone.

After 2 seasons, do you use an ankle brace still, or just pretend it was never injured?

[03RLXi]

What about rubber type bindings? I always pull the rear lace on my years old HO Animal tight. It's cord, not bungee rubber. There's no way I can remove it at end of set without loosening it. I've always come out in OTFs but should I be leaving it a bit loose?

 

[MDB1056]

@03RLXi if you come out in OTF’s - you should be good . I’m in double tfactors- I lace pretty tight - but also have come out in OTF’s . Seems the perfect place to be. I don’t want any looser. 

[03RLXi]

Actually I retract the comment "I've always come out in OTFs" as I didn't in this one. Think it was 2 forward rolls. No injury. Stayed firmly in Animal and RTP. 

  

Edited February 21, 2023 by 03RLXi

[Horton]

without getting into the weeds about specific bindings in my mind consistency is more important than how tight or how loose. if you always have your findings the same you will ski better. safety is a whole other conversation

[boscoman]

Thanks everybody!

[Ronny61]

Is there a quick release setup that works well with the 2022 Radar Vapor binding and Radar Senate pro ski? I had a crash at the end of last season not long after I bought this new binding and did not come out, had a very bad sprain. I love the binding, did not think that I had it to tight but after that I would prefer something that will absolutely release on a hard fall. Curious what is the best/easiest to set up at a reasonable price.  TIA

[rico]

foot tight, ankle snug. 

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

Foot snug, ankle as tight as possible. 

[Slalom.Steve]

16 minutes ago, ColeGiacopuzzi said:

Foot snug, ankle as tight as possible. 

I have to think you mean for using with a release mechanism? I believe the post was asking about running the Vapor Boot fixed to the ski and releasing via the liner coming out.

[rico]

@SlalomSteve pretty sure you are correct. @boscoman the idea is to be able to release in case of fall. ankle can't be tight.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@SlalomSteveMy fault I didn't read all the comments. Yes I use a release, but yes like @ricosaid above you want it tight, but loose enough that you will come out in a bad fall. It really comes down to trial and error on land and seeing how much your ankle can slide up in your boot. 

[Slalom.Steve]

I've used a Leverage boot (no lacing) and a T-Factor (has lacing), with a rear toe plate. When I'm done with my set, I push roughly on the back of the rear plate to pop my front foot out. That is my metric for tightness - I want it to take a solid push and some effort to get off, but not be a struggle. I haven't had an issue yet with not releasing in a fall. I'm gonna switch to the Vapor Boot for this season and plan to use the same sort of measure to see how tight I can cinch it.

[aupatking]

@Ronny61the new Vapor can be used with the Reflex release system. If you use the same boot size as Reflex uses (even numbers 6,8,10,12) you can even use the Reflex plate. If you have the odd size boot, you’ll need the Radar plate for the Reflex release, as well as the lower “horseshoe” toe piece of the “classic” style boot or remove the spacers of the “Supershell” horseshoe to get it lower. If you go this route, most suggest you replace the bungee lace with a static lace to transfer all release energy to the release mechanism. 

For the standard boot-to-plate mounting, forefoot static lace with upper bungee tight enough to be comfortable but loose enough to release. In the water, grab the nose of the ski and pull. It should come off without a whole lot of effort

[mike_mapple]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:43 PM, Ronny61 said:

Is there a quick release setup that works well with the 2022 Radar Vapor binding and Radar Senate pro ski? I had a crash at the end of last season not long after I bought this new binding and did not come out, had a very bad sprain. I love the binding, did not think that I had it to tight but after that I would prefer something that will absolutely release on a hard fall. Curious what is the best/easiest to set up at a reasonable price.  TIA

Only the 2023 would work with the Reflex type system if thats what you mean, I see other people have mentioned it. I have not seen MOB mentioned but, I sadly cannot remember the username on here, hopefully someone can chime in and tag him.

[BraceMaker]

@mike_mapple@mmosley899

[Ronny61]

Thank you guys @aupatking& @mike_mapplefor the responses, do you know what is the main difference between the 2022 and new 2023 boot that makes it not work with the reflex system? Is there something that can be modified to make the 2022 bot work?

If I purchase the 2023 model can you direct me to the best place to buy what I need to get my ski set up with this system and do you have an idea of what I will need to spend minus the boot?

I wear size 9 LFF

[aupatking]

@Ronny61 @mike_mapple is correct, the old style Vapor boot does not have the rigid front toe or heel block for the Reflex release. I was not thinking about the new Vapor boot being a 2023. Chris Parrish Frankensteined one to work that way, but I don’t recommend humans do what that alien does. 😂

As for the parts needed for a 2023, Radar’s site, under Boots, had the plate at the bottom of the page for $89. Reflex has the toe loop for $60 and the release for $199, both on the Spare Parts page. 

So, all in, around $350 before shipping and taxes. 

[Ronny61]

@aupatkingThanks again....  That would be the carbon G10 plate?  350 is is worth it to me for an insurance policy

[steeliejunkie]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:26 PM, boscoman said:

After 2 seasons, do you use an ankle brace still, or just pretend it was never injured?

I gave up the ankle brace after one full season. It took me a while to get comfortable again. My ankle was ready long before I was. Unfortunately it took me a whole season to really get back to pushing myself again, but these days I pretend it never happened. 

[aupatking]

@Ronny61 yes, on their page they call it “CARBON/G10 FRONT PLATE W/ ADAPTABLE MOUNTING”

[Ronny61]

@aupatkingThanks, another question: Are you familiar with the mob system and would that work with my 2022 vapor boot?

If so, are there any advantages or disadvantages to this system compared to Reflex?  Do you know what the cost is for mob?

I ski with rtp

[aupatking]

The MOB is a great system. It will work with your current boot. You would want to replace the bungee lace with a static lace, to make certain you stay in the boot and transfer release energy to the release mechanism.  It allows for release in a sideways/helicopter type fall where a Reflex style release may not. If your ski does not have the extra set of front binding inserts you may need to use 3m double stick tape under the front of the plate. I know that used to be needed, but he has redesigned the plate since I used it, so that may not be necessary anymore. It also has an integrated mikro-just style adjustment in the plate.  
the front plate system is $495@mmosley899can answer any question you may have, and is a great guy. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by aupatking
More info added

[Ronny61]

@aupatkingGreat, thanks....I think I like the sound of this system for a few reasons

[Billbert]

Am I wrong or are the 2022 and 2023 vapor boots the same animal?  I purchased my new boot last spring and its the new hybrid lower hard shell / upper soft shell design.

Love the boot.  Was under the impresion it would work with a reflex and I am considering it.  Again am I wrong?

 

Thanks!

 

[RAWSki]

@Billbertyou are not wrong you can use the Radar Vapor boots fixed to a radar plate or in conjunction with a Reflex system.

 

[Slalom.Steve]

@Billbert - Yeah I think there's some confusion in calling the re-designed boot a "2023" or a "2022," likely because everyone releases their "2023" skis actually in the year of 2022. By that logic the new Vapor Boot is the 2023, even though it came out last year... but by common sense it's the 2022 - hence the confusion lol. But there's the old boot without the hardshell bottom and the new boot with the hardshell bottom. There's no updates from last year to this year on the new hardshell version.

[Cam]

Getting the thread back on track I have just moved from a Reflex white cuff to a 2023 vapor boot without a release, with both the foot and ankle snug it feels much better than the Reflex and I know I am going to come out of it.

 

[mmosley899]

@Ronny61 the MOB release system works great with any of the Radar boots. I am personally using the new 2022 Radar Vapor boot.