jdk99

I'll buy "I donewanna" @than_bogan - that's my reason. Not sure I buy the neck injury argument. I guess you could argue a skiers angle of entry is more horizontal than the wakeboarders which lessens the force of impact. Just seems interesting to me that in this day and age when everyone's got 'em all wadded up over concussion that it hasn't really hit our sport.

Forgive me if this has been addressed in a previous thread but we had this question come up the other day. A friend blew his ear drumb on a bad OTF. As he got back into the boat holding his ear, I pointed to the wakeboard helmet with ear protectors that we make our kids wear and asked, "huh, I wonder why we skiers dont wear helmets when everyone else does?" Thoughts?

@Bruce_Butterfield, can you elaborate on "2. Drive your hips up through the wakes on both sides" More specifically, what movement/muscle action are you suggesting?

Yep...Liquid Edge in central Illinois. My local dealer. Top notch in every regard.

I just have to chime in and say what an amazing sport we have! Where the pros and experts are willing to jump in and share their thoughts with the mortals. @twhisper, @MarcusBrown, @sethski...thank you. Class acts indeed! As per @deep11, this thread and few that preceded it will be preseason/offseason/inseason reading for me for years to come. http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12177/edge-change-transition-question-help-needed http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12186/the-reverse-c http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12230/i-found-this-very-interesting http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12232/i-found-this-very-interesting-terry-winter-transition @Horton, two thumbs up for a phenomenal site.

I certainly never intended to light of this firestorm when I asked my initial quesion...HOWEVER, what a tremendously helpful discussion guys. Thanks to all. @sethski, sincerely appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts. Good luck with the Iron Bowl today.

@A_B, great advice! Reminds me of a question Ive often asked myself - does mogul skiing mess with slalom form? I think yes…for the very reason you state in your post.

Sorry guys never really introduced myself. Been lurking for a year, posting sporadically the past few months. Name is Jeff. 42. Married with lots of kids. Neurosurgeon by trade and therefore tend to overanalyze everything (as some of you are now painfully aware!). Happy to answer any spine questions that may come up to the degree I can in this format. Returned to skiing 3 years ago after a long education induced hiatus. Started in the course this past season , 10-12sets overall until I blew my ankle in early July. Absolutely addicted! Bought a 196 after 2 sets. (take note @gt2003). Great site! Thanks to @Horton and all the experts who post for providing a tremendous resource…and crackhouse for the addicts!

Sorry @Horton for stirring things up. To quote @A_B, "put a fork in me". I'll shut up and read with interest what others have to say.

thanks @MattP. Ordered my OB4 with Roxas this weekend. I plan to mount the Stradas initially but transition to the Roxas as I get used to the system.

Reasonable counter argument. So @Than_Bogan and @Chef23, what would happen if Seth, Corey, or @Horton did hold their lean thru the 2nd wake or white water at 15 off? ...Would it not be that they would generate too much load resulting in getting pulled out? If so, could it not be that some 15 off guys ARE generating good position and acceleration out of the turn but in trying to hold their lean through 2nd wake (as advised by most) end up getting pulled out?

Ok, so the more I watch and read the more confused I get. Below is an abridged 2013 interview from Corey Vaughn posted on skiall6.com. This captures my confusion and experience to a T. Curious as to your thoughts. “What do you believe is the biggest misconception in slalom ski theory? The big misconception that I always hear has to do with wake crossings, specifically how long a skier (especially at 15 and 22 off) should hold his/her edge. “Lean through the second wake,” “hold your edge all the way through the wakes,” “don’t let off your pull behind the boat,” To the 15 off skier, all of these statements are entirely false Ask any pro skier to run 15 off 30mph and I promise they won’t do any of the things mentioned above . As they edge up the first wake, they will keep their legs strong, they will ever so slightly start standing taller, beginning to de-weight the ski as they come off the crest of the first wake. They won’t bog themselves down by trying to keep their ski engaged in the water through the turbulent prop-wash and second wake. Those areas would only create drag and pull their good position apart.. If the skier is trying to keep the ski in the water through the middle or really give some oomph on the second wake they are likely compromising position on the first wake (squatting back, letting hands out and/or absorbing the wake with the knees/hips) in order to “stay on edge.” if you watch any accomplished skier run 15 or 22 off, this is exactly what you will see: a series of 6 balanced pops and efficient transitions. Most struggling 15 off skiers have good enough body position to create this outward thrust off of the first wake but end up sacrificing the position because they think they need to go THROUGH the wakes” Exemplary Stisher video 15/32:

Thanks all. @ozski, I can guarantee there is plenty that needs work! I'll keep my head in those spaces for the time being. Appreciate everyone's input.

Many thanks for the comments guys. So I found this Stisher video that addresses the issue. If you go to ~0:30 he discusses a subtle yet intentional hip move outward that commences the transition, emphasizing the need to keep the upper body quiet and arms in. This move is exactly what I am trying to clarify. Watching -15 skiers coming into the wake, one sees static upper AND lower body, often resulting in getting pulled out at the second wake. For experienced skiers, one sees a static upper body but DYNAMIC lower body where it appears the hips/knees/ski are moving outbound more rapidly than the upper body generating an almost seated appearance coming off the second wake. So what I am trying to figure out, assuming decent stack/position/acceleration, is the mechanism by which this occurs. I.E. do I use the building pressure from the acceleration phase to "shoot" the ski outbound with the hip move that Seth describes? Or do I just keep working on getting more speed with good position and this will happen automatically. Appreciate you patience with the sophomoric questions.

Just started skiing course last year and progressed through 15 off up to 15/34 pretty well until I blew out my ankle in July. One of the things that I see when comparing my video with good/great skiers is the appearance of the transition. You experienced skiers appear to shift you lower body outbound as you hit the first wake/midline. Conversely we newbies try to hold our lower bodies steady throught the wakes then do a quick edge change after the white water and mistakenly release the handle at the same time. All that to ask: Is the lower body move that I am seeing in experts 1) a conscious/intentional move and, if so, how do I initiate that move OR 2) an unconscious/natural result of good body position and handle control? Appreciate the input for us mere mortals.

@lakeaustinskier…thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. Great input. Much appreciated

Blew out the ankle twice this year. Based on discussions on BOS, have decided on the OB4 but have a few questions for those in the know: 1) Anyone tried the Roxa shells now offered with the system? If so, thoughts? 2) I have Stradas currently. How well do these work with OB4? 3) In the off chance someone has tried both Stradas and Roxa, comparisons?

@Patmaster, familiar with and have reviewed the literature on both. See the last paragraph of my response to 6 balls above. Long story short, dynamic systems may be the future but have yet to be shown as definitively superior to fusion. Keep in mind that there is a great deal of tech push in medicine - not a bad thing but often leads to fads that pass with time after the evidence doesnt pan out. If you're an early adopter, go for it.

@6balls…fellow 99 grad eh? what's your specialty? And fyi I barely qualify as a baller…just started in the course end of last year. Cleared 15/30 and 15/32 this year but stuck at 4 @15/34. Off side lean kills me! …To your point, the question in adjacent segment disease remains whether it's simply natural history of a diseased spine or actually caused by the fused segment. Likely a combination of both. I quote my patients a 10-20% of future adjacent segment failure. As to dynamic systems, results are not absolutely conclusive yet that they actually prevent ASD…which may argue for natural history as the source. The other issue however is that of failure rate of dynamic hardware. Think moving parts…with time the risk of failure likely goes up, just like joint replacements in ortho. So then you're left with the possibility of one of two future surgeries: 1) fix the adjacent segment OR 2) revise the old dynamic instrumentation. From experience I will tell your that #1 is far less complex than #2. My sense is that most of us aren't quite sold on the dynamic systems….yet.

@Patmaster - not exactly sure what you mean by "stabilizing implants…that avoid fusion all together". I'll assume you mean dynamic instrumentation that somewhat preserves the motion segment and theoretically prevents adjacent segment disease. Jury remains out on that approach as the technology is new and the evidence is not overwhelming at this point (although it could be in the future). Throw me some specifics and I'll add my .02

For what it's worth...as a skier and neurosurgeon, I will share this: there are no objective data that specifically address course skiing in someone who has had lumbar fusion with dynamic or adynamic instrumentation. Which is to say, all we as MD's can give you is our best informed opinion on the matter. Unless someone is a skier, it is difficult for him to truly understand the forces involved...particularly those that occur in bad OTF fall. My rec to a patient undergoing Lspine fusion would be to wait a full year for aggressive short line skiing. The skiing itself doesnt worry me as much as the potential for a bad fall. Reasonable perhaps to return at 6 months but only at sub max levels so as to avoid the fall potential.

Thanks for input guys. MIxed opinions I see. Might just wait for a 15 promo.

So, quick question for those of you who have driven both the 13 and 14. Was the throttle improved from 13 to 14 at all? Looking at buying a 14 promo boat but my teenage girls pull me on a fairly tight lake so the throttle concerns me a bit. If the throttle issue persists on the 14, I might consider the prostar instead.

@skijay many thanks for the 'tip' (panda worthy pun!) @waternut thanks for letting me jump in on your thread

my $.02....(and i realize I am the one dissenting voice here)... I picked up up vice's last year for my golfer's elbow. loved the gloves ...worked phenomenally for the elbows. skied better too. Bad news: never had shoulder issues in past BUT last year ended up with cuff and labral tears after skiing. fortunately no surgery. brother visited and used gloves...loved them...until he tore his labrum as well and needed surgery. now, cant be sure it was the gloves but neither of us have had shoulder issues before. interesting coincidence. skied all year this year with normal gloves and have had absolutely no shoulder issues. keep in mind, we are 15 off guys with relatively poor technique so i am sure that plays into the equation. in my experience, the prolock type gloves with dowel in place will delay release every so slightly which translates force to the shoulder, usually in an extended/abducted position.