So_I_Ski

@ScarletArrow can you please elaborate as in exactly how or why did the palm down method prevent you from falling back on your offside turn? Thanks.

I've been a sports addict since I was a kid (now over 60) and I've participated in practically every sport you can think of, many of them competitively. What I find unique about waterskiing is that it might be the only sport I am aware of or have done myself where repetition alone will have no affect whatsoever improving your scores or results. In other words, in virtually every other sport, even if your technique is flawed, you can still progress albeit slowly, with enough repetition. But in waterskiing, progress is virtually impossible unless your technique changes or improves. If you haven't accomplished certain techniques that higher level skiers have for a given line length, you will simply never make that pass. Now, you may or may not agree with that premise but my question is, with ski season approaching, what changes in technique do you believe will permit you to the make a full pass that you have never completed before and what line length is that?

I hadn't seen it either. Hilarious. From Monty Python: What's brown and sounds like a bell? _____ DUNNNG!

@tap, the only mention of methodology is that the speeds were recorded with a "hand-held sports radar gun", with no mention of whether it was from the shore or the boat but that might not make any difference. The speed remained constant from 15 thru 35. Then at 38 it was the big jump to 53.5; at 39 it was 54.6 and at 41it was 55.2. One would expect the last two increases as the line continues to shorten but it is odd that although the line shortens dramatically from 15 to 35 there is no such incremental increase. I do agree with @Gloersen that he is skiing his longer lengths with speed in prep for shorter lines. And when Andy coached us, he said that he went hard regardless of the line length which also makes sense. I think a skier should only have one gate to develop and practice for the harder passes. But when looking at Cox's observation, I also think he was probably right about the lack of speed affecting guys going from 35 to 38.

YIKES! I love your attitude and wish you the very best. There must be some offshoot of the wildlife protection agency that you fall under for a grant of some sort. We're an endangered species and we need you to stay with the flock. Kidding aside, there is a well known spiritual (not religious) book called "The Power of Your Subconscious Mind", you might want to pick up. Combine the right thoughts with will power and we can accomplish amazing things.

I was looking at some old ski mags and came across an interesting observation by Wade Cox in a 2003 issue. He was taking a look at his gate speeds from 15 off at 49.8 mph thru 35 off at 49.7 mph and noticed that there was virtually no change despite a 20' variance in rope length. However, and here is the really interesting part, at 38 off he was travelling almost 4 mph faster at 53.5. He postulated that perhaps that was why so many amateur skiers run 35, but rarely learn to master 38. Now I realize that most of us are skiing at 34 mph so we would probably scale his findings back at least a couple of miles per hour. But for those guys like @Horton who have mentioned that they lack consistency at 38 this might be their issue. What Cox is saying basically is that to finally master 38, the skier may have to learn how to ramp up the speed beyond what their comfort zone was in previous passes. Comments?

Love to watch that video of Terry and had the privilege of watching him from the boat about 7 years ago. A group of us were at Sunset Ranch when Terry and four other pros along with Todd and the waterski mag camera crew showed up to film for Edged in Water Two. I don't believe they ever used any of the footage but it was great fun to watch. I was in the boat when Will Asher took a stab at the lake record. He got inside six at 41 off. A mutual friend, Scott Rabeneau, who is also a very good coach said it best when he said he would rather watch Terry run 32 off than other pros make shorter passes. Anyway, here is another video of a guy with great form that some people aren't familiar with. His name is Wim Decree and if you go to Schnitz's site you can watch it in slo mo. It's great to watch if you're LFF.

Who'sUP or Baller

Offside, Ripit, Ingear, Hitit. Buoy sounds too much like Boy.

I get the "smooth" and "light on the line" concepts, but I would also have to say "light on the line" for example implies the opposite as Andy saying "10" for physical effort. And for me "10" means stomping on the gas pedal so it would be hard to argue that you're not going to have more speed across the wakes which is the ultimate goal, right? Provided of course, that you can control that speed and it's effects on your body position. Andy was a pedal stomper and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe his wake crossing speeds were measured to be the highest of all the pros. The result was that he was higher and earlier than everyone else - a huge advantage.

Andy coached a big group of us (22 skiers, I think) about 5 years ago and we heard the same things about being aggressive. Then some of us were coached by Mike Suyderhoud almost 2 years ago now and he put it in perspective. He said the guy who gets accelerating the soonest and quickest as he completes the turn like a runner out of the blocks will be the most successful. So don't wait to get on it was both his and Andy's advice. Although to me, sometimes it appears that the pros seem to wait till they're closer to the white water and I often hear others say not to pull too hard, too soon. Confused!

@jimbrake - well said, and I will remember that "key" if I should happen to be discussing it with others.

Unlike our southern neighbors, if you live in Canada, it is extremely unlikely that your course is on a private lake. Environmental restrictions make it very difficult to build a private lake and we have so many fresh water lakes that to any government agency, any application seems absurd. Having said that, where I live in southern BC, Kelowna to be precise, we have two groups of avid course skiers. One group of about a dozen skiers has two courses set at each end of a small lake with restricted access close to the city . The other group that I belong to with about 14 skiers, prefers to drive two hours on weekends to a more remote chain of three lakes where we have installed two courses at each end of the first lake and two more at each end of the second lake. Not only is the setting pristine, there is almost no boat traffic and the gods are kind enough to provide glass water, the equal of any private lake on more than one of the courses 90% of the time. Barring a major storm, it's unheard of to get skunked over the span of an entire day. "Amazing", simply doesn't do justice to where we ski. It was also Andy's sentiment when we had him up here to coach us about five years ago. So if you're a baller with the travel bug, let me know when you're planning to be in beautiful BC.

@mwetskier thank you for your explanation of what happens on a snow ski and your comparison between the two. I thought you verbalized it very well and I am in complete agreement with every word you wrote. @Drago, I though I had explained it pretty well by saying the outside shoulder relative to the inside shoulder when the reach is fully extended. At that point you should not be able to draw a straight line from the centre line to the skier and have it go thru both shoulders. The outside shoulder will be slightly behind or in some cases more so than the inside shoulder depending on how much the given pro has countered and whether it is his onside (usually more) or his offside (usually less). Regarding hopping under a squat bar, if you read my prior post again, you will find that I believe that remaining countered as the load comes on is NOT a good idea. To repeat my belief, countering is only benefecial during the phase when the skier is essentially free from the pull of the boat. That is a relatively short duration starting with the reach and ending just before the load comes on in the pull phase.

@Drago, I've carefully read your post repeatedly and I am having trouble following your line of thought so can you please clarify. In your first two sentences am I to understand that even a "bit of counter rotation" .... = wheelie? And in the following section it sounds like you are suggesting a very small amount is desirable? Or am I misunderstanding that? With regard to being "square and perpindicular to the force, I agree completely with @AdamCord, that in the pull phase, staying countered or too open to the boat is a weak or compromised position. For me, countering is about the preturn and turn and only that. As for most of the top pros like CP that I have carefully watched videos of repeatedly (because I spend a stupid amount of time doing that one thing), at the point at which their reach is at it's maximum, virtually every one of them has the away or trailing shoulder behind the leading or reaching shoulder as opposed to fully perpindicular to the wakes. This is most evident in slow motion videos so please reference Regina Jacquess or Terry Winter to confirm this. And if you can find a video of any current pro skier that does not do this, please refer me to that video.

@AdamCord, thank you for responding to my query about the rest of the GUT approach. I too, look forward to the unabridged version. Regarding what you wrote above, on the Reach, I think you are spot on in your analysis. While I believe in the counter and found that it had a significant effect on my skiing, I had never considered the effect it has on extending the reach. So I stood as you suggested and reached with and without countering and the difference in the amount of reach is significant. Great example, great explanation. I also agree with most, just not all of your section on the Pull. But I will leave that alone. With regard to the counter and it's relation to the turn though, I think that something is being overlooked by skiers that believe it is either not related or would have little benefit. If you compare waterskiing to snow skiing, you will find that correlation. A snow skier knows that the only way to turn effectively is with the lower body. Although it is counter intuitive, even in snow skiing, if you want to turn to the left, the torso stays down the fall line while the hips twist beneath the torso. And if you want to turn even more agressively, the feet, ankles and knees all press into the hill to roll the ski on edge as much as possible. Applied to waterskiing, when you open the chest or twist slightly away from your desired direction of travel, the result is that you are telling your body that the only way to make the turn from that position is to twist the lower body and edge the ski just like a snow skier as opposed to simply falling with your entire body staying straight as in the "old style" waterskiing. Edge to turn, don't fall to turn. Equally as important is that the counter combined with the reach you described when it is in an upward motion, automatically levels the shoulders entering the apex which prevents the upper body from falling toward the wake, further enhancing the movement of the lower body. The hips will instinctively drop to edge the ski even further as the skier resists to maintain his postition and keep the torso upright. The end result is those terrific pics of guys like Nate Smith or Marcus Brown, virtually sitting on water at the completion of the turn with the ski dramatcially rolled on edge. Although I do not have a clue regarding the bio mechanics and why turning your torso one direction, enhances the ability for the lower body to turn a ski in the opposite direction, I know it works and the guys who know this best are also great snow skiers like Marcus or Jamie Beauschesne. I may not have described all of this as well as I might have and if there is a snow skier out there who can do a better job please chime in.

Horton, I know that you didn't mention Mike. I wasn't implying that you did. I was simply referencing the video that was posted because I think it's excellent and it actually addresses the points you made. He also says that the free arm should stay close to the body. As the chest opens and the torso twists moderately the free arm and hand does not fly away from the body. If it does, then I agree with your statement that the tendency might be to over rotate as the arm swings back.

I beg to differ with most of Horton's analysis. First of all to suggest that countering leads to your hands being further apart and combining that with more twisted shoulders makes it more "tempting" to bring your upper body around quickly, is simply conjecture. Furthermore, it overlooks what Mike was explaining in the video above which is that as the ski turns, the skier need only focus on sliding across with the upper body to place the torso in a better position to accelerate which is what the GUT approach emphasizes. Then Horton suggests that when you see a pro level skier do that, it might be ok but not for us mere mortals. Personally, I think we should be trying to emulate them wherever possible as opposed to putting them on pedastals so high that we forget that they have to wipe their asses just like the rest of us when they take a crap. Lastly, as Mike also explains, part of the counter move is to reach with the handle. If you do that not only will you NOT put more weight on the back foot, on the contrary you will put more weight on the front foot. If you want to see a great demonstration of this, watch Freddie Winter's offside turn. The best video is on youtube in a tournament with a bunch of the best skiers. Type his name followed by "the water ski broadcasting company". And yes, his counter move is clearly happening at the ball line as he approaches the ball.

In the summer I had read the first two sections on GUT. Yesterday i went looking for the rest but when I visited the Denali website, they only had the first two sections posted with a notice that GUT 300 was "coming soon" to a theatre near you. Where can I read the entire theory or is everyone waiting for the grand unveiling of "GUT 300"?

What would you use for a rear boot? Would both boots and releases be the same or would you only use this on your front foot and go with something entirely different for the rear?

I bought a new Gekko 10 years ago. I've skied behind everything but the newest MC and the Carbon Pro. And I've pulled a lot of guys that own Malibus, MC's and Nautique. Funny thing to hear some mention the hard wake. What wake??.... is the standard comment from virtually all the skiers I've pulled. Perhaps some people have it propped wrong? I've also been advised that a four blade prop softens what little wake there is at 15 and 22. And without a doubt, I haven't been behind anything that comes close to a no dip, flat flat wake from 32 up. Plus nothing I have ever driven is as easy to drive or tracks straighter. Cheap interior has always been the problem but then the boat costs a lot less than all the others. All in all a highly underrated ski boat primarily because so few tournament skiers have ever tried one since they are virtually never used in tournaments.

The control thing seems backward to me. I've always thought the front foot did little if anything to actually control the ski, as in foot pressure. But maybe I'm wrong so I'll have to pay attention when I'm back on the water in four months.

Strange. Our group has been under the belief that RFF had the course advantage because they always have fantastic gates and a great start is important as the difficulty increases. Here's my theory. LFF should be the dominant choice because more people are RHH and the dominant foot or hand is the one you put in the control position. We control a golf club with our right hand or arm and the left is just an extension of the club. Same with waterskiing where the back foot controls the ski. For an onside turn "if" we want to drive or smear the ski we use our back foot. And if we are RTP we may even be moving our heel around slightly to enhance the control. Here's something about our group that is interesting and might explain something. There are twelve of us and we're all LFF. Not a single RFF. We all ski the course now but we all grew up free skiing on open water and came to the course in our late thirties or even later. I think if you started skiing on a course as a kid you will have been encouraged to go RFF but if not, and you choose what feels right, it will more likely be LFF.

A lot of good comments here to think about. I cant my back boot and for awhile the front one as well for a simple reason along the lines of what Razor posted. I am duck footed. Some people are pigeon toed and others walk and stand with both feet pointed straight ahead. That is the way we were born and whether it is related to the direction our knees are pointed from birth or the orientation of the hips or both, I don't know. What I do know is that if I don't cant my back boot, (LFF) I am literally unable to place the ball on the inside of my foot on the sole of my boot. That's how uncomfortable it is for me to have both my feet pointed in the same direction especially with one foot trapped behind the other. In that position with my foot rolled to the outside, when it comes to my onside turn I can hardly edge the ski at all. So if you can ski comfortably with both feet straight ahead then I think that is the way to go. Otherwise, turn at least one of the boots (probably the back one) in whichever direction allows your hips and knees to align naturally for you.

What Razor says! Koodos for a thorough analysis. Now get back on the water you lucky b**turd. Me, I'll warm up the snow shovel. That white shit is coming.