amnesia

Static vs Kinetic friction? ie: it will require more force to overcome the friction of the binding mechanism and result in a "release" if the movement is slow (dock) as opposed to fast (skiing)

I just wanted to add a final comment on this thread (which I started): Finally got out to Sunset Lakes and Chris & Jon immediately set me up with an EDGE hardshell binding to demo. Well, to say I was impressed is a gross understatement. I couldn't believe how comfortable and easy to get into this binding is compared to my Vectors (still using Vector rear boot with the top lace very loose for now). The difference in feel is unbelievable. I can now crank down on the buckles as much as I like without affecting the the release. It feels like the ski is part of my leg - totally connected with no slop what so ever. My skiing immediately improved 100% and I never looked back. After skiing 12 sets over 4 days I happily plunked down the cash so I could keep the binding. I ended up needing a size 10 shell and a size 9 edge liner. I tried an intuition liner (size small 6-7 fit well) but found that the ankle cuff was way too loose. The edge liner seems to have more volume around the cuff and holds me in better. In fact Jon still had to move the upper buckle so it could go tighter to accommodate my skinny ankle (if I ever decide to change to an intuition liner). It did take a bit of playing with the adjustment in the beginning as it was pre-releasing occasionally with sloppy starts. Once set properly, the binding performed flawlessly. During the course of the week I did manage to have 2 "out the front" falls and the binding released without any pressure on my foot or ankle what so ever. The initial demo was the original "3D" base -which immediately cracked. Once changed to the upgraded "beefier" injection molded plastic base it was fine. I would never go back to the Vector, or any other bungee type soft shell release system. I love the comfort, convenience, safety, and MOST IMPORTANT THE FEEL skiing on the hard shells. My only advice is to carefully try on ALL the shell/liner combinations to find the correct fit for your foot. And make sure you have the upgraded base. Don't assume that the intuition liner is better than the edge liner - as this was not the case for me. I'm told the 2018 model shell will have the top buckle drilled with an extra hole so it can be moved to make it tighter. Cheers, Amnesia

David_Quail, that's the conclusion that i'm sort of coming to as well. I will probably move to a Syndicates hardshell in the near future. I'm going to Travers for a week next month and will definitely be "pushing my envelope" so I want to be as safe as possible. On my snow skis I ALWAYS set my bindings quite a bit lower that the DIN charts would suggest. Works for me and I have never pre-released. Simply put I almost never fall so the odds are in my favor. And if I pre-release I'm not really all that concerned. I wish all that was true on water, but since I'm always trying to "push it" to get around the balls i'm doing my share of falling, and i'm way more concerned about "pre-release" than on snow. Does anyone know if my Vector Featherlite rear boot would mate well with the Syndicate Hardshell? Or would I have to get a Wiley rear or some other boot? I also have the Vector RTP as well as the Vector HRT but always felt better with a rear boot to avoid those "one foot out" situations that Horton was talking about.

I was wondering where they were at. I'll definitely check them out.

No worries OldboyII. My condolences. Didn't mean to diss SUP's. I took one out for a spin in Jamaica once. Not my thing though. Biggest excitement was dodging the Jet skiers. If you were in Vancouver where I live, you'de have your dog with you and both of you would be doing yoga in your Lulu Lemons on the SUP.

OldboyII. I was perfectly happy with the Stokers on my Connelly FX. Always came out when I should have. Hate to give up my Vectors though - they match the Senate so nicely (fluorescent green - ughh!). Maybe i'll sell the whole setup and buy a SUP and supplement with actual adrenaline. Much safer in the long run!

Hey Horton. Thanks for all the great discussion. I'm curious what you think about david_quail's comment. He kinda has a point: ""twisting" fall, where there's only twisting force. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you in trouble regardless of what binding you're using in this situation. In my lace up vector bindings, I'm not magically going to pop out if all I do is twist my foot. I need that combined with some pressure to lift the heal." Ultimately, I only want what's the safest. Is there an inherent problem using a "high end" setup like Silvretta with hard shells when I'm an intermediate skier (not skiing as fast or aggressively as an advanced skier, but on the other hand much more likely to fall - possibly in unusual ways)?

"Generally setup looks pretty safe" not sure if I like the sound of that. Definitely wouldn't fly in my line of work!

Hmmm. Good point. Lets see what the experts say.

Amazing article BraceMaker! Just goes to show how much engineering goes into safely holding a boot onto a snow ski. I wonder how much of this thought process goes into water ski bindings such as an elastic lace like my featherlites, or even a hard shell release mechanism like Reflex. Statements like: "All bindings on the market have tension adjustments that are standardized to the scale specified by DIN" don't seem to apply to water ski bindings as far as I can tell

Wow! Thanks for all the great discussion on this most critical issue. I guess the hard shell option isn't as "cut and dry" as I was led to believe. The fact that they look like/are snow ski bindings led me to believe that they are as safe as snow ski bindings. I'm a double black diamond snow skier for over 30 years and have never injured my knee (or ankle) despite some spectacular crashes (I did however fracture my humerus with a stupid pre-release). A properly adjusted/tested snow ski binding should never torque your ACL. I suppose I will stay in my lace up soft shells for now and ask Jon Travers what he thinks when I'm in Orlando next month. I don't think I could trust a binding that only released in one axis. I spend my working days in the operating room looking after the poor suckers with torn ACLs, achilles tendons, fractured ankles, and other "freak" injuries - and would prefer to stay off "the table" myself.

Interesting point Killer. These bindings remind me of my snow ski bindings from 40 years ago - but those released in many axes and not just heel lift. I realize the forces on snow ski bindings are much greater than on the water, but I doubt that any of the current waterski bindings would come close to passing snow ski binding liability requirements. But honestly, the bindings are so snug that I barely need to tighten the laces at all. If they were any smaller I doubt I'd be able to get my feet in them. I'm definitely not swimming in them, but your point is well taken. I guess there is a VERY narrow range of lace tension adjustment between too loose and too tight.

Very good points Scottscott & Skee. I have to admit that as i've been progressing i've been tightening the top lace of the front boot ever so slightly. I seriously doubt I could pull my foot out of either binding without undoing the laces, but I always felt that was due more to the material and boot shape than the lace tightness. They really fit like a glove (ski glove!). I'm not really "reefing" down on them much at all, and it's always a struggle to get into the boots with the laces undone (even though they are plenty big - size 7-11 and i'm 9 1/2). Soap is of no help with this liner material. An interesting side note: the shop where I bought the set up are very knowledgeable and they told me that they had never had any foot fractures (not ankle/malleolar) prior to selling these bindings. In the first year they had a bunch of nasty foot fractures and actually contacted radar with their concerns. The following year the boots came with a warning tag on the laces saying not to tighten them more than some amount (30 pounds I think). Seems like a pretty inaccurate "release setting mechanism" to me.

Well, they're pretty snug. I have never released - but I never needed to release either. I always keep my back boot "a bit" looser than the front - mostly so I can swivel my back foot a bit. I just remember the guys at Jack Travers and Sunset Ranch saying the reason they use hard shell bindings is its just too dangerous without the release mechanism. Granted they're going WAY harder than I am, but I don't want an injury.

Hey guys; I've got a Radar Senate Alloy (67) with double featherlite boots. I'm learning the course at 15 off, 28mph. I recently went out the front at the second wake and my rear foot came out, but the front foot didn't - which caused me to go over forward way past where my ankle was meant to go, and really tweaked it bad! :'( I instantly realize that I need hard shell bindings with a proper release mechanism (I never really trusted lace up bindings anyways). I just wanted your thoughts on the pro's and con's of the various setups available and which you recommend. I'm considering Reflex, Edge, and HO Syndicate (those are the only ones I know of). I thought I would keep my rear featherlite, and just get a front hard shell. I'd really appreciate your thoughts & advice. Oh, I'm 5'8", 154 lbs, and 61 years old, and usually ski behind a Nautique. Thanks in advance.