Adam Caldwell

Just a quick thought.... Maybe a concept we should be looking at a "team tournament" format. A team would include say 9 skiers per region, made-up of three top skiers from each category - Juniors, Masters, Pro - from a given region. Can run for Men and Women separately. The winning team has the most total buoys. Individual awards/placement could be done based off performance. With enough notice, it would be beneficial for the Pro/MM/Junior to support each other in training throughout the summer however possible to increase odds of winning the event. Event format could go a number of different ways. Would make for a more integrated and inclusive format interesting for a broader range of skiers. I cant quite understand why, but there is definitely an ODD barrier that exists with MM/Open skiers, and there really doesn't need to be. NOBODY in this sport is doing it for money or glory.

@rico - YES - speed is overrated. @Horton I think that is exactly what we should do. Keep ZO happy. Use as little ski angle as necessary, and let the tunnel and fin drive you across the lake.

@ktm300 - ski crashes and car crashes! lol It definitely helps!

@jjackkrash Ill say for sure that is 100000% in true in this sport as well. Im a good example of that...and still learning how to ski like a stick figure vs a gorilla. Worth noting....I've seen a couple young guns who slayed it at for while start to struggle as they got stronger because they could piss off ZO a lot more..... This sport certainly takes a unique set of attributes and will humble ANYONE.

@teammalibu Very good! - keeping that gap closed as much as possible into CL and beyond the white water is more important then trying to force additional ski angle through the back of the boat. You might end up feeling slightly slower through center, but with a better connection to the swing after centerline(hand-hip gap is smaller) can ultimately take you to a wider point in the course - (versus going 100mph at CL, but on an unsustainable near 90deg path but with no (or degrading connection) leaving the second whitewater.) I believe a lean drill like this should be a tool/mechanism/practice to help promote situational awareness to help set you up for the ideal body position and trajectory AFTER crossing CL. Not just for creating huge load and resistance against the boat on the way to center. I don't care what level of skier you are... this is a critical element to running easier passes with less effort. PROVIDED you have set the timing up prior to the gate shot to allow for this to happen!

@Horton - YES it can. But only if certain circumstances exist. Which I think is why this gets confusing. Let me spend more time putting this into better perspective over the weekend.

This clip might make you think.

Hell YEAH. There ya go. Bad ass! Now throw a 600lb weight on the end of that rope and rep it!

Im going skiing.

@BraceMaker - I remember when MC came out with the first Illmore engines with massive boat covers and super tall pylons...It definitely felt a little harder to stay down in a pull against a higher connection point! @dchristman The ski under us when on the water is producing massive drag and lift forces. Couple that with your body leaned at 45deg with centrifugal force (pull) from the boat and you can use some trig to roughly resolve the direct compressive forces would be acting in the bodys CL axis between the shoulders and the feet. When we are discussing a "static land jig" to mimic a slalom pull under load, the higher the connection point is, the LESS compressive forces you will feel acting vertically through your body. Conversely the lower the connection point, the greater those compressive forces will become. To me, 90% of the reason for doing a lean drill is to help figure out how to stand in such a way as to resist getting 'crushed' while in the pull. If there are inadequate compressive forces, the drill is practically useless. Now if you want a static land drill setup to mimic more closely to what's going on while skiing (still a far stretch from reality), then my recommendation is to use a lower anchor point, and stand with your body in the right position such that you are working against more then just gravity to be able to stand up tall and get into a solid position. I suppose another option is to use a pylon height type of connection point, but put a 450lbs into a sack and put it onto your shoulders while doing said lean drill. The biggest single gain I made in this sport was after I became aware of what part of the system is really responsible for putting that crushing load against our body during the lean, and it is not just the boat. Below are REAL figures of line tension skiers at shortline deal with as the line comes tight. Not saying this is ideal...but its just something to provide perspective. If you consider every action has an equal and opposite reaction, you can do some very general and simple math to get a ball park on the compressive forces acting vertically through the body. A lean drill should teach you more then how to hold onto a rope tied to a wall. It should teach you how to manage compressive forces your body is dealing during the pull, while simultaneously controlling your body position with respect to the ski and with respect to the anchor point. If you have good body position, you can handle massive loads and barely feel them. Conversely, if your body position is poor, it takes very little load to further compromise your position. This goes back to the perceived versus actual loads conversation from a few years ago. Still think some bungee is going to get the job done?

Why not go further and just hang it from the ceiling…. how much compressive load would you have then?

@teammalibu In my mind, while the anchor point you have makes sense, what I think is more realistic is using a lower anchor point to create compressive forces on the body that are more realistic with what you’ll experience on the water.

@teammalibu Bad ass setup! ....Id look to open those feet up a bit. Maybe aim your knees and toes towards that furring strip. You want to be able to close that gap between your right hip and right hand as much as possible, while being able to continue a lean laterally beyond the imaginary edge of the ski. All your teaching yourself from that photo is how to hang on while being completely separated.

@m_deel

@JayproAs much as people like to try to "simplify things" I believe trying to simplify the "right thing" is very important. This sport is highly complex and there's honestly nothing simple about it. The rabbit hole goes DEEP. I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

@Jaypro - in the most simple setup. yeah sure. In reality I would be looking to get the roll angle of platform somewhere between 25-40deg. More then that on land and I don't think its realistic. (The body can get to deeper lean angles, but usually there's a significant ankle/knee/hip flexion that is creating the additional body lean. Said differently, in a snapshot of a skier crossing CL, ski roll angle doesn't not necessarily equate to body lean angle.) What should start to open your eyes is that with having feet/chest pointing on a slightly shallower angle in this kind of drill, (as described previously) you should realize you can stand taller and lean your body much further across the skis edge without increasing load on the rope. Something you should notice is how your body lean relative to the ski starts to change - and also your body lean relative to the rope as well. The lean is a 3-dimensional effort...finding some keys to anchor all three dimensions of the lean can go a long way to seeing results and changes on the water. But if the setup of the simulated land drill is wrong, it can potentially be counter productive on the water as nothing will translate over.

when it comes to doing any kind of lean drill..... In my mind one of the most important elements is having a target to aim at somewhere off in the distance behind the stand - or mentally in your head. For example, having a target that is of relative angular displacement to say #1ball from the gate will give the skier a more realistic place to AIM their efforts. If you look at the geometry from CL of the gate, the straight line path to one ball is ONLY 23degress from CL. Shift your wake crossing over to the right hand gate ball and this angle becomes smaller... down to 20deg! In my mind, both in practice on shore, and practice in the course, making any effort to ride the ski into the first wake at 60 or 90deg extreme will only create tons of unsustainable load and speed into CL (which pisses off the cruise) and dynamically disconnects the skier from the pendulum swing on the way to the ball. No need to ever align your feet at an angle any greater then 45deg to the pivot. Being aware of course geometry will have a massive impacts on a "lean drill" on any kind of static lean stand....Most people put their feet 90deg to the pivot which just binds up and completely misaligns the body and fails to teach the skier how to utilize the whole body (balls of feet to top of the head) in executing the "stack". @Shell - NICE! Yeah I think that's the right idea for sure. When I work with people at Trophy, I always tie the rope off at ground level to a tree or whatever with about a 5' lead, and then attach the end of the handle to that. Helps to create compression between shoulders and feet as the skier increase lean angle. Then skier can learn how to create separation between shoulders and feet to allow vertical space for the hips to move forward and get the body into its most effective alignment to handle the load.

I think the concept is very cool, but without someone "instructing" the appropriate effort behind the drill on the lean stand, it could potentially lead to really poor mechanics on the water. I think to be effective, the handle must mount much closer to the floor in order to more accurately re-create the compressive load on the body that is created as ski lean increases. That doesn't tend to happen when handle is mounted up high on a static apparatus like that.

I think this conversation can go back to equipment and technology.... Ride a ski too small for your size, and you'll need to be crazy strong to run shortline. Ride a ski almost too big for your size, and you'll need really good technique, but potentially less 'strength'.

@Horton, Heres my geeked out perspective on a pretty challenging question.... More load will only create more tangential speed if the reaction-force vector on the bottom of the ski has a significantly large enough cross course component to cause the skier to accelerate radially around the pylon and overcome all drag and wind resistance on the moving body as a whole. Quite often more "lean" definitely will result in more load which will absolutely cause a greater throttle response from ZO, but that doesn't necessarily mean tangential speed will increase at all. As many have alluded to, the upper-mass position relative to the "hydraulic force generator" (aka the slalom ski under your feet) will dictate the resulting reaction forces on ski - and its ability to cause acceleration of your mass. In theory it is very possible to create greater rates of acceleration while reducing load on the line and on the ski. When its done well, a skier can manage the lean such that their mass experiences increased acceleration with significantly less overall load on rope and ski - and be more hidden from ZO - producing less "throttle" response to the skiers input. (incredible feeling when you figure it out). Unfortunately the masses of skiers are creating acceleration directly through increasing both line and ski load - which directly increase throttle response/input from ZO to indirectly create the acceleration they're looking for. Want to accelerate faster? Ride a bigger hydraulic force generator. Then point it in the right direction. And then lean in the right direction. And then hang on tight.

@Bruce_Butterfield You might like to play with the Pandora fin on that setup also...

This guy gets it!

Believe it or not, the size is irrelevant in terms of width and length and surface area. The industry has trained people that a 170lber should ride a 66” ski. Whatever that means. I think it is a limiting belief for both ski designers AND skiers. What is relevant when it comes to sizing skis is the performance characteristics built into the ski. The things you cant necessarily see with the naked eye. For example, its possible to build a 66” ski with a terrible flex and torsion pattern with imbalanced surface area, lift distribution and induced drag characteristics and it could feel like riding at 70” and wont turn or drop in at the ball. OR, it can build it where it fees like a 60” ski that sinks, barely gets any width and folds you in half from being too soft, too stuck and too slow for opposite reasons. Sure, traditionally with the norm of carbon copy skis and designs, a lot of skis are extremely similar. And because of that we are custom to think that a 66/67” is the middle of the road and appropriate size. In reality, all that matters is a skier is riding what will produce the most buoys for them at their given level and speed/ability, and physical composition. I’ve come to find that skier height is almost as big of a factor in sizing as weight. For example, I have a 210lb 5’6” guy on a medium at 34, and a then another 190lber at 6’3 on an XL - Same skill level, but vastly different builds. So then you must also consider body composition and where someone's COM lands and how they utilize it when they ski. At the end of the day, what matters is we have a way to convey differences in range of products offered and how that will align that with your overall performance and ability riding it. So far I like @AdamCordCords recommendation of calling the XXXL the "Krispy Kreme"...

A lot of lakes have islands that are oversized, and others that are too small. Both will lead to excess wasted fuel either in just extending time under throttle or having to apply too much throttle to keep speed in a tight corner. Other consideration is distance from the 55s. Does not need to be excessively long with how powerful boats are today and how quickly they can reach speed. The right size and alignment are ideal, and I think can improve the experience for both the drivers and the skier. A good turn island will help the driver find CL of the course much earlier and cleaner. I may be biased to Trophy Lakes, but the turn island setup near the start dock is one of the best setups I've driven. Easy for most anyone to drive, and will produce a repeatable experience for the skier on the end of the line regardless of the driver. Here is a google map photo. Centerline shown is 55m -55m buoy. The best turn island is on the right side. Boat path opens up as you exit the island and you don't need to hug a shoreline as your powering up to throttle. We also put an additional buoy (in alignment with right hand boat guides on the exit of the turn island to help driver find center faster. You would be amazed how much this improves the consistency from driver to driver entering the 55s. Turn island on the left side of photo would be better if shifted about 20feet further from CL, as you have to really hug the island to line up early, and for a lot of drivers it can be more challenging.

@Horton, you trying to pursued JR to get back out there to get over to 3 ball?