adam

Thanks TomD. I like it. How come you limited it to the first 100? Just testing it out? At least my name made it, but others may feel left out.  Adam

It looks like IWWF is using any class E or above scores. I have scores under my name for our class E Ken Mead memorial tournament in addition to my Regionals and Nationals scores. If they are accepting class E's, then I'm not sure what the need is for class L anymore. My division (M3) was skied under class E at the Regionals and Nationals I'm pretty sure. Even though I'm still 44, they have me listed as a 45+ skier (a tougher division). For AWSA, I still ski M3 until after the Nationals this year. I think IWWF must be using the age of the skier at Nationals unlike AWSA who uses the skiers age on Jan 1. The titles 35+, 45+, and 55+ are misleading. It is really 35-44, 45-54, and 55+. It would be nice if they also listed all the 34 MPH skiers as one grouping too. The toughest division is the M4 group now. Adam

I have one of these flex testers. They are heavy duty. I would not hesitate recommending it. Adam

I'd like to know how the water got warm.

M3. I was one of the last skiers on the low seed lake (Turnpike). I needed to judge some myself to upgrade to senior and got stuck in a tower for 1 1/2 divisions (3 hours). I don't believe there were tons of volunteers, so the officials were getting stuck on towers for hours. I can say that I wasn't overly impressed with some of the calls while I was on the tower and obviously while I was on the water. Anyway, I didn't really want to hijack this thread with a discussion about officiating. Next year, I hope the divisions aren't split between two lakes like the last several years. The N-S lake was better all around and the last 5 or 6 skiers or more on the Turnpike lake had a legitimate chance to podium, but the conditions weren't the same.ÂÂ

I flex tested my old 67.5 2005 Sixam and my new 67.5 SS using a flex tester I bought from M. Erb (recommended). I was surprised to see that the old ski was stiffer down the whole lenght of the ski by about 5%. I don't know what the original flex was on the old ski so I can't tell if it got softer, but the consistency of the offside turn has gone way down. I can still ski pretty decent on the old ski which I used at Regionals and nationals (5 @38 and 3 @38--actually 3.5 @38 if the tower judges weren't so blind). The new SS just seems more peppy or snappy and definitely more consistent. I don't know what to think about the old ski being stiffer and the new ski feeling more lively?? Adam

Roger, That sounds good. Let use know what you find. I have never seen a 1.79 1 ball time. BTW, our course setup is not that short on either end. Thanks. Adam

Roger, Sorry for the delay. I've been in a class this week. We tried both methods over the weekend. I almost always get a 1.77 1ball time. Sometimes, I can get 1.78 using the easy up method. The ZO indicated speed at the 55 meter buoy was around 34.7-35 with hammer down and 34.4-34.5 on the easy up method.  Adam

Roger, OK. I'll check the 1 ball times as well.

Roger. Since it is speed based, why would it matter if a skier was back there? Wouldn't it still stabilze to the same speed after lock with or without a skier or with a big or small skier for that matter. When I asked the driver to ease up to the speed and then push the throttle down another inch or so after it locked(usually about 150' before the 55 meter buoys), the speed felt slower at the 55 meter buoys and the gates. It was kind of in line with what I found without a skier. This weekend I'll check it again just to make sure. I'll have the driver use the hammer down method from both ends of the lake and check what the ZO indicated speed is at the 55 meter buoy and monitor it until the boat reaches the entrance gates.  Then I'll have the driver use the ease up method and compare the indicated speeds. Our lake(Lake Holly) is around 2000' and has a slight dogleg at one end. I have never noticed any times that are far off from actuals on any of the buoy times including 1 ball. I'll check the 1 ball times as well just in case.  Adam

Do you think it matters what the driver does between the time he/she pulls up the skier and when the system takes over? Here is a cut and paste from the ZO FAQ section under How does Zero Off work (Technical)? "Simply pick your desired speed, and shove the throttle handle wide open. ZeroOff will take care of the rest. " That is not how I drive, but some of my drivers have been doing that.  PP with a servo motor does not result in a 1-1 correspondence between the throttle location and the throttle application between startup and speed lock. This is because the servo is totally unwound at idle and as the boat accelerates to speed, the servo winds up some of the thread on the spool reducing the amount of throttle actually being applied. This allows PP to have some throttle to work with to control the speed during the pass. If the throttle wasn't pushed down enough, PP would not have enough throttle "room" to operate.  ZO on the other hand, does seem to have a 1-1 correspondence between the throttle position and the throttle application between startup and until ZO takes over. Since everything is fly by wire, there is no need for stealing the throttle to have enough later to apply it, but ZO does use the final throttle location during the pass as a ceiling for how much throttle the system is allowed to access. If the throttle is not down far enough and ZO hits this ceiling, it will beep about 4 times or so. You just have to make sure the throttle is down far enough to allow ZO to operate. One interesting thing I've noticed is that the RPM number on the recreation screen seems to control when ZO locks on the speed. One day while getting frustruated navigating through the screens to go from rec mode to tournament mode, the RPMs were adjusted down to around 2200 accidentally. At 33.7 in recreation mode, we could not get the system to engage period. After serveral attempts, we aborted the set and later decided to up this number back to 2800 after scratching our heads for a while. It worked fine after that. Now to my point. Since ZO is 1-1 on the throttle until it takes over, at the point it takes over and if the boat is still accelerating like crazy as if the throttle is wide open(as their site recommends) the boat will overshoot the gate speed and be fast at the 55's. ZO doesn't seem to aggressively get the speed to a certain point before the gates for some reason. Testing my theory without a skier by driving the recommended way, the boat was 35.2 at the 55's and still 35 at the gates. Then I accelerated as I normally do and backed off to near the right RPM's for the set speed and pushed the throttle down an inch or so after ZO takes over to give it room to work and it resulted in a 34.4 at the 55's and the gate. I have been struggling mightily this season behind ZO. My 35's are only about 60% with some OK days and some really bad days. The last three sets(two different days) I had, I was 1 of 4, 1 of 1, and 1 of 4 at 35 attempts in perfect conditions. I was ready to give up skiing.  I felt like I was flying at the gates and skiing behind a freight train. I was struggling with my gate timing and ended pulling too much through gates and was flying at 1 ball and would be done by 4 ball. We know how much ZO likes it when we pull and it seems to stay pissed through the rest of the pass.  Then I started looking into how the system was being engaged. Yesterday I skied two sets in a fair amount of wind after asking my driver to not use the full throttle method. The first set I ran 4 at 38 (I pulled between 3 and 4 and got slack at 4) straight up the line and was 2 out of 3 at total 35 attempts. The second set wasn't as good at 38 but I was 4 out of 4 for 35 attempts. Everything felt slower and more controlled. Well, obviously I think it matters how the system is engaged. I don't think following the ZO recommended approach is good. These are just my findings on our boat. Hopefully, this will help someone else struggling with it. I will caveat my findings though. We have an 09 Malibu with ZO and our lake has a slight dog leg on one end and is a straight shot at the other. I only took 2 appraches with the hammer down method and two with the ease to speed lock and press down method. Both without skiers. The ease to speed method seemed to achieve a more consistent speed. I'm not sure I believe the speed being reported on the hammer down method because from the boat it felt faster than 35.2. I will also say that ZO on our boat has acted strange and incosistent this year. Adam   ÂÂ

Yes, Wim, but not in FL. He came up to VA. Adam

I guess most people would consider me lucky to be able to train behind ZO. In a way, I would have to agree, especially for someone who skis tournaments. In another way, I would disagree. It is similar to getting a bad driver at a tournament and bringing him/her home to train with. If it was good, everyone would have liked it at the tournament whether they could train behind it or not. I have tried A2&3, B2&3, and C2&3 behind our 09 Malibu boat. I feel they all gass me too long into the buoy and can leave me disconnected from the boat at the buoy if I have to do any significant amount of pulling past the wakes based on what happened at my previous turn. I have not liked any of the B settings at all, but for some reason A 2 or 3 is better that any B setting, but C seems to be the best for me. I skied KX+ and 0 on PP. I am in no way saying that C anything is like KX+ or that ZO (any setting) is like PP (any setting). I'm just stating that for reference. I skied with Wim two days this week as well as one day last Year. Last year, he was coaching me to not work so hard and let the boat do the work. To ski more efficiently. I also had one set with Seth last Year and this was in line with what he was saying. This year, Wim is telling me to ski efficiently to not engage ZO because it won't be good. I will lose that battle. It will gas me hard and late. The coaching was the same, but the reasons were slightly different. I'd like to mention that Wim is a excellent coach as well as Seth. I don't think you could go wrong with either one. Anyway, I was told that ZO feels different from boat to boat (and I believe it), but A1 is the most consistent from boat to boat so some skiers are using that setting so they don't have to worry about the boat selection as much at a tournament. I skied with Wim behind a CC and he tried various ZO settings (with my permission of coarse). He told me B anything was bad for me and A's were OK but gassed longer than C. That was kind of in line with what my impressions were. He told me C1 was the best for me based on what he heard from the boat. That was a surprise. I never tried any letter with 1 previously because I thought it would make it worse. I have to say that I agree with Wim on the C1. I think C causes it to engage earlier and 1 mutes the throttle response. I need to spend more time with it to say for sure, but that is what I feel right now. I am skiing a couple of sets behind our Malibu tonight and will give the C1 another try. I hope that ZO continues to improve their pull and I believe they will. Until then, the strong and heavy skiers are going to suffer the most or skiers that turn and burn. If you can find a driver that will leave the wheel alone between the time you change edges until you hook up and start loading the boat, you will fare better. Thanks for the Evolve DVD John. That was awesome. I already had Momentum, but I liked the music on Evolve better. Adam

BOS rocks! Now is only ZO can mature to the point that it rocks for everyone too. I'm sure it shouldn't take 9 settings and drastic throttle action to accomplish this. Thanks /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif Adam

Sounds good. I have my fingers crossed. Thanks, Adam/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif

This is my first year training behind ZO so I can't say too much about the Q version improvements over last year. I had a few opportunities to practice behind it last year. Last year it seemed like I was either on and made the pass or one slight mistake in the turn where I didn't get angle at the finish, I was done. One day I'd go out and run 7 of 7 35's in one set. Another day, a week or two later, I am 0 for 10 attempts at 35 in two sets. I even tried going back to 32off to unsuccessfully smooth it out. It just seems like angle at the finish is key or maybe what you do to get angle is key. If I try to muscle it out and get angle that way, the boat gets pissed and runs like a scalded dog and don't let up even when I'm past the wake. I might make the next buoy, but the boat was gassing so much that not only do I have too much speed at the next buoy, I also have extra slack because the boat slowed down too much. I don't know how many good drivers would gas someone that long and back off that dramatically right afterward. The Q version is only slightly tamed IMO. It still gasses too long and exhibits similar characteristics. Anyone who has the size and/or strenght to pull the boat down after a bad turn will have a bad day. If I get angle at the finish of the turn, I can do whatever I want and still be OK at the next buoy. I could pull as hard as I want at that point or just sit there and let the boat do the work. It doesn't matter. Part of the problem is that the driver can have an impact on whether the skier is able to finish the turn and establish angle before the pull comes on, then ZO will destroy the skier without angle. Maybe one approach to recovering from a bad turn or any turn that results with no angle is to do what you can do to get the angle with out pulling too hard and/or limit how much you pull after the wake. If you pull hard to make up the time, make sure you get off the pull earlier knowing that the boat will back off when you do. Hopefully you will have the speed you need to get wide enough to round the buoy. I have been all over the place trying the difference settings. I think C3 has felt the best so far, but sometimes it feels like I can't get to the buoys. B anything just has never felt that good or maybe those were just bad days. A2 and A3 are OK sometimes, but I think they have the potential for giving me more slack since they gas comes on later.  Just my .02 FWIW. Adam

From what I hear, Chris is a very good driver and I think he just gave us some really good tips that I agree with. One is to be quiet to the skier which to me translates to never let the skier feel your steering inputs. The other one is to let the skier steer the boat. This I take as using the skiers actions and adding as little input as possible to keep the boat in the middle and to get setup for the next ball as opposed to forcing the boat down the middle. To do this, you have to definitely be in tune with the skier. I believe you also have to slightly crab the boat a little. The pylon is the only thing I've ever seen evaluated for boat path. Even if the boat crabs a little, but the pylon is always centered, the boat propwash path will always be straight. I believe that this type of driving takes more skill, but the skiers appreciate extra effort. I also believe the driver can do more damage to the skiers performance than cruise control any day. At least from my experiences, if there is a choice of what boat or cruise control we get in a ski off, it will usually come down to the one that has a good driver in it. There are a few outside the course actions that don't impress me with drivers and I've seen few senior drivers that do them regularly. One is that a driver should be able to get the platform to a tired skier at the end of a set. I don't know how many times I have to swim to the platform only to have the driver put it in gear to try to help you, but instead take the platform further away from you. The other is when the driver puts it in gear while you are setting in the water between passes. It makes the skier feel like the driver is in a hurry and just wants to get out of the boat or get to the next skier.  Thanks for the tips Chris.  Adam

An indication of a good driver would be whether they get the boat balanced or not within the first pass or so. It not only impacts the wake, but also the tracking and handling of the boat. It doesn't make them a good driver if they do, but it at least shows they try. It sucks to be a hard puller though. It is hard to find drivers that will not over compensate or compensate too early. I am working on the efficiency thing, but it is a slow process.  Adam

Animal,  Like sixamss, I don't believe anyone was at a disadvantage with PPC. The skier wieght leveled the playing field. I do like ZO behind the Nautique. It is consistent at what it does. If I get late though, I haven't figured out how to get that next buoy. If I pull my ass off, I can't make the next buoy in most cases because the boat has access to so much power so fast. In an effort to figure a way to get that next buoy, I've tried changing edges earlier but I can't get the width to clear the buoy. I'm still looking for that majic combination to get the extra buoy that I could with PPC. I try not to ski late, so I don't get to try it too often. The MC with ZO is the pull that I don't like. I can't imagine light or heavy skiers like it. I do acknowledge that it could be the specific boat. YMMV.ÂÂÂ

I didn't see a voting option that fits my opinion. I like the ZO behind the two Nautiques I've tried. I hate it behind the one MC I tried. It is the hardest pull I've ever felt. I wonder if it ZO was designed before they removed the muffler. I believe they removed the muffler to meet the 0-36 acceleration test. It had to change the power band some and it could be the reason for the hard pull. Or maybe it could just be that particular boat. SG behind the same boat feels good although I don't like SG behind our Malibu. I do like SG behind a different Malibu. I have tried to set both Malibus up the same. It would be nice for ZO to have a calibrate mode where it could learn and adapt to the boat it is in or to a new prop that was installed. These parameters could be determined from how much throttle it takes get to accelerate to a given speed in a given timeframe. I'm sure there are a lot of parameters they could come up with to make the boats feel the same. ZO is easy to drive, but I wouldn't mind entering skier weight or skier type (hard puller like me, smooth skier unlike me, etc.) or any other settings that would make the pull feel the same from boat to boat.  I do like the idea of GPS systems, but I would to have seen PPC available during the transition. The way the rules are written, skiers don't have the choice between SG and PPC. It is a club decision and only SG can't be used if PPC is chosen by the club. I really don't understand the logic behind forcing the manufacturers to choose a cruise control and take that choice away from the skier when they had that choice at all the tournaments. My division has the MC at Regionals and Nationals, so I changed my mind about going to both of them.  I really hope ZO feels good behind all boats next year. I also hope that ZO and PP work together to come up with a similar pull for PP that is available to the rest of the skiers out there.  Adam