buechsr

Sourcing numbers from a few areas of the internet, so take with a grain of salt: 

There were 7,216 "inboards" sold in 2013.  (per boatingindustry.com)

In 2019 Malibu alone sold 6,292.  I don't know the mix of cobalt.  Industry-wide, 13,000 inboards sold in 2020.  I'll assume 15,000 ish at the 2022 peak.

Roughly speaking, in 2013, the Vdrive conversion was already well in hand.  Some manufacturers had either cut all DD (Tige), or cut to 1 or 2 models, many of which were carry over low sales units like a CB response, which was basically unchanged since 1999.

It wouldn't surprise me that in 2013 that DD sales were 10% of the market: about 600 boats.  

I don't know for sure, but I'd estimate that the big 3 produced 500 or so DDs in 2022 of the 15,000.  I bet Horton knows the MC figures which would be the bellweather.

My point?  In 10 years it may be that there's only a 100 unit difference in DD sales.  Malibu made a business decision as to its priorities, but I just don't see it as indicative of a cliff that DD sales by gross unit numbers are THAT much different than regular market trends.  

2 hours ago, DW said:

@buechsr - that would depend on their mission.  A few options could be:  continue along the current course, expand a marketing program to increase visibility to attract additional membership,  look at the key focus of the organization and see if it is still appealing (ie: tournament format, etc).  My point was simply that the comment regarding the state of the sport comes from a manufacturer and not just passionate participants.

Look we all want interest from skiers and supporting industries but my response was to your call that as a result of the the Malibu PR release "would hopefully generate action from the organizing body"

I was looking for you to say what you'd like to see.  I'm sure Lyman would as well.  We all want the sport to thrive.  But its hard to create a meaningful marketing program for AWSA in the current climate.  I'm quite confident that Lyman  and his predecessors do all they can with the budget they're able to use and are acutely aware of competitive skiing's challenges.  But as I've already posted in this thread in response to someone saying kids aren't skiing any more, that's actually not the case, when looking at nationals numbers, anyway.   

A manufacturer's decision to stop promo program is just that, theirs.  Doesn't make it right, or wrong, or that the sky is falling, it was a decision they made based on their resources.  As a former owner of many many malibus, this upsets me, and I hope they realize that there's a lot of direct drive Malibu owners out there who supported their Vdrives as a result of their introduction to Malibu through a direct drive.  I've felt this way for a long time when manufacturer "support" of ski boats has come up.  I don't think it's fully appreciated how many Vdrive sales are a result of someone's experience with the brand through their ski products.  Hard to prove or know that but I firmly believe that the promo program sells boats years after the ski year AND supports other models/entries.

2 hours ago, Horton said:

I guess a different question is - If Malibu keeps making the TXi but does not have boats at tournaments will that move potential buyers to MasterCraft and Nautique? Or will it not make a difference? The TXi accounted for only 15% of the total tournament boat market last year. 

From a buyer's perspective, hard to justify a, whatever, $90,000 promo txi that now you don't even have a 1/3 chance of drawing at big tourneys let alone see at many local tourneys going forward.  My bet is the market will be soft for the last year of Malibu promo guys next fall.  That stinks all the way around.  

1 minute ago, DW said:

Rob Corum’s comments are much more telling than the news that Malibu is keeping the ability to build the TXI.  I hope the AWSA is reading and absorbing the release.  What it says about the sport would hopefully generate action from the organizing body.

To do what?

I've got  a few I could part with.  1 older connelly (cheap), and 2 quantums.  I even have the 54" goode which wouldnt be terrible to start with as its so much easier to ride. I'll take pictures when I'm at the lake this weekend.

14 minutes ago, Horton said:

Does anybody think the impact of the lawsuit might be already baked into the current stock price? If Malibu was doomed we would already know. 

Absolutely.  Malibu is far from doomed, its a Billion Dollar company in market cap.

Notably, people continue to throw $200M around. The settlement agreement was for $100M, only 40 of which was payable immediately.  MORE IMPORTANTLY, Malibu has filed a bad faith action against its insurers for their failure to, allegedly, settle it within their policy limits before it even went to a trial.  In other words, Malibu's exposure could be quite minimized.  But I don't see what this has to do with the txi program.  

On 2/10/2024 at 8:52 PM, BKistler said:

Many thoughtful comments on this thread. One that has not been mentioned (unless I totally overlooked it) is that kids do not water ski at all these days. It’s knee boards, wakeboards and tubes. It’s rare to see kids being taught to get up on skis.

This is an overbroad statement that is not true for many areas.  

But lets even assume it is true, and since this site is at least in some way emphasizes tournament skiing, lets talk real numbers:  

I randomly selected ski year 2008, 15 years ago, and counted all girls competitors (G1-3) at nationals AT OKEEHEELEE...91 skiers.

I then took 2021, in ILLINOIS, and there were 88 girls competitors (G1-5).  I'm not going to go count every year for comparisons, but statements like "kids do not waterski AT ALL THESE DAYS" is simply not accurate and the sky is not falling when it comes to kids and tourney participation, certainly at nationals anyway.  

50 minutes ago, liquid d said:

That lawsuit loss of $200 million dollars may be the end of the company, with assets being sold. 

MBUU stock popped 5% this am.  Malibu is going nowhere.  Heck we're thinking about "Malibu" boats....Malibu Boats the company owns numerous other manufacturers including Pursuit, Cobalt, Pathfinder, etc.  Discussion about the big 3 "killing" the ski boat market by "pushing" wake boats is not sound logic, any more so than saying Mastercraft is killing its sales with Bennington pontoons.  One has nothing to do with the other.  Malibu will try to make money however it can efficiently.  Heck they pioneered the "budget" wakeboat alternative in Axis with far less in margin for them than Malibus.  Simply put, the market has or will dictate the viability of continued txi builds.

1 hour ago, DvarianDan Johnson said:

This should not be surprising. From an investor standpoint this is as simple as saying does it make sense to build ski boats that deliver X% ROI vs non ski boats that deliver 3-4X% ROI and on larger numbers. That Malibu was keeping minimal build slots for low return use is clearly telling that at some point it will end when investors question. With only 50 made – this was a given to occur.  No argument left either for keeping a presence in that market for the sake of other lines.  Speculation on big boats pulling back is just that , but it can also add support to this move by saying if we're making fewer widgets we need to make sure they all are producing the highest ROI .  

That’s true, assuming that there was insufficient infrastructure to build both the TXI and  Vdrives.  I agree it makes a little sense to build a TXI instead of a Vdrive, but that wasn’t necessarily the case and appears to definitely not be the case going into 2024 given what the numbers appear to be for all manufacturers.  In other words, if Malibu can still make 30 grand on each TXI build, and the plant is far from capacity, why trim it when all of the R&D is done?  

Mine flared up last year. I rested it, used compression sleeves, use the squeeze balls, and squeeze twist tubes, finally had enough and just went after it in the weight room and did everything that hurt it: deadlifts, pull ups, rows, everything.  It felt like hell at the time, but I recall within a week I felt normal again. I think there’s something to be said for engaging the surrounding structure and not babying it.  There was for me anyway.

7 hours ago, DW said:

@buechsr - unfortunately, the US tends to operate on the reactionary side of the spectrum.  Many or even most warning labels are the result of the actions noted in your post, sometimes it can be very challenging to determine how something will be used ahead of time.  As evidence:

Purpose is 2 fold:

1) effectiveness for some 

2) to save face with regulations by a preemptive attempt.  
 

While perhaps dumb, Subway accomplished both.  Quarter million dollar wake barge manufacturers are accomplishing (not even trying) either…and now soliciting “our” support.  Ironic, is it not?

To add to my last (since I can't edit for some reason), think about the Malibu bow swamping tragedy and resulting lawsuit.  Had there been a warning on the windshield saying bow capacity is x, or not for use when boat is in motion, 1) the incident very likely wouldn't have happened and 2) Malibu would have had nothing to worry about.  Instead, it wasn't even tested, nor warned about.

A simple "This watersports boat is designed to create large wakes and waves which can cause damage and injury to other boaters and shorelines.  Please do not use within (whatever) 500 feet of other boats, docks, or shorelines as doing so can cause irreparable damage".  It would have been that simple. 

The moronic wakesurf boat owners I see, I  don't think are doing so intentionally.  They don't know any better.  So who is the point of contact for educating them?  In my view, it starts with the manufacturers.  

1 hour ago, VONMAN said:

I have a new student (mid 40's) I'm coaching. He has a son so he has a wake board boat. Needless to say we are using my boat for slalom skiing and one day we are out on Lake Weir (public lake) and a wake board boat drives by as my student is skiing. I hit the wakes first and my student doesn't let go of the handle at first. He lets go deciding that he likes his knees and ankles. We swing around and pick him up, and I swear to God his first words were "I never knew my Wake Boat wakes could hurt other people? Now I know why you hate them so much".

I've added his son to our training, he's a total beginner but he's loving it. Even heard him tell his Dad to sell the Wake Barge for a Ski boat. Two new skier's to add to the list.

I'm still trying wrap my head around how you would make wake/surf boats wakes smaller/tamer? Don't see that happening without restricting displacement and the manufactures just keep making them bigger.

Now imagine your Centurion being impaled on your dock from the same wakes.  A few posts ago you were alluding to lawyers taking away freedom?  Freedom is all well and good when it doesn't damage other people.  Then, the perspective (must) change.  I say that as a wakeboat owner, long time public lake property owner, and recipient of wake damage from totally ridiculous operation.

Personally, I lay substantial responsibility on the manufacturers.  Whereas the PWC industry knew they had to tone back the speeds of what they were capable of or else they'd find themselves in governmental crosshairs, wake boat manufacturers provide zero helm reminders (to my knowledge, and I've had 15+ wakeboats) to people of some basic damage/reputation mitigation.  Had we seen for the last 10 years some basic helm reminders to avoid shorelines, avoid boats at anchor, use discretion when using your $10,000 stereo, some face could have been saved that guns don't kill people, people do (wake boats don't cause damage, people do).   They've been pumping boats out to people, many with simply limited understanding of "most" people know.  And, as a result of clearly insufficient educational efforts, governments will start throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Hardly a surprise.  

5 hours ago, liquid d said:

Does Victory Lake in Jacksonville still have a club operating?

Yes

2 hours ago, Octopus_Paxarbolis said:

9K for a trailer?

A new one, absolutely. I got a bro deal on a single axle very basic Ski Nautique trailer a year ago that was 7500.  A dual axle Wakeboat trailer could very easily crest 10.

On 12/10/2023 at 6:25 PM, S1Pitts said:

@Hortonis correct about the slalom wakes. My friend bought this hull last year. You have to start at 32 off 34mph to get a wake that is crossable and by 35 off you are hitting spray. Recreation long line is ok but that's about it.

That could be the case, or it could not.  2001 was the first year that the VLX was available with the diamond hull.  While, no one is going to confuse even a diamond hull with any slalom specific tractor, if it is the diamond hull, it skis very well. There’s still one in my family. It is slightly firm, but at 32 and above it flattens out nicely. I’ve had multiple VTXs, and skied behind the so-called crossovers of the other big three, and no one can say that any of them ski any better than a 2001 two 2004 VLX with a diamond hull.  There could be individual preferences, but the boat listed is as good of a slaloming vdrive as has ever been built.

The hard part is determining whether it has the diamond hull, or not.  The giveaway is the angle of the downturn of the most lateral strakes.  I cannot see any pictures of the hull in that listing.  If you can post them here, I can tell you. However, the Malibu crew is a great resource for anything and everything Malibu. Personally, if that’s a diamond hull in decent condition, I think that’s an “OK” buy, given the unknown price of a trailer. I can tell you that a new boat mate will run around $9000.

12 hours ago, jjfresh said:

Not the comments I want to be seeing regarding gators and FL...it's one of the main reasons I still debate about moving there.  There aren't any gators in VA I have to worry about.  Whether that peace of mind is better than 24/7 sunshine and warm weather I'm not sure yet.

They're nothing to worry about.  My daughter literally had to jump off the starting dock in a tournament last year with one 50 feet away.  Gator-fear is irrational, particularly in football, lol.

12 hours ago, MitchellM said:

I've looked at three homes in this development and a few others on this lake.  These are nice, but there are no mature trees in this development and the lots are set back from the lake.  The addition of a pool in most of these homes is a deal killer for me.

Am I reading that right?

Just now, MitchellM said:

I had the boat out in direct sunlight most of this weekend.  The week days it's been inside a covered lift.  Not much direct  sun in there.

if possible, leave it direct sunlight.  Its the UV that makes it go away not just "airing" it out.  

9 minutes ago, MitchellM said:

The pinking has faded significantly with a combination of sun exposure and applications of 10% benzoyl peroxide.  I've also kept the cover off the boat for the time being on my covered lift.

Are you actually leaving it in the sun or just uncovered in boathouse?

2 hours ago, MitchellM said:

Yes, I read that article and others.  I suspect I have bacterial pinking.  The boat was left in a storage yard while I closed on my lake house 6 weeks later.  The boat had the black full cover on securely, but it was in full sun and likely got very hot.  Also, there was some rainwater intrusion which led to some moisture under the cover.  The intense heat from the dark cover in contact with vinyl in some regions caused this.  I hope it's not permanent, but it may be.  Very unsightly.

It's not.  Its chemical.  It's not permanent.  I've had it on multiple Malibus in the 04-07 era.  Put it in the sun and thats it.  Not "outside" in a boat house (though that will help), in direct sunlight.

Don't fret, it'll be gone in an hour or 2 of direct sunlight.  Some have suggested replacing black cover with a lighter, less heat generating color, and letting interior dry as much is reasonably possible before covering.  

All setup and installation is same for both.  it’s just additional software.
 

Get 3 event without a doubt.  Skiing in wakeboard mode is a disaster.  What feels good for a wakeboarder as to throttle timing sucks for skiing and you’ll get perpetually gassed late and have crazy slack in every turn.  
 

10 hours ago, Horton said:

if you're not skiing tournaments and do not have your eye on super short ropes an off-the-shelf Perfect Pass system is a no-brainer. I wouldn't even bother with a more modern stargazer system.

Disconnect the secondaries on your stock Holley carburetor and go ski.

 

PPass doesn't make classic anymore.  You have to get stargazer.  Unless you're speaking to Zbox specifically?  Stargazer is a simpler install too.  No hull drilling.

On 9/29/2023 at 2:45 PM, MDB1056 said:

Pages and pages of comments here on a topic which is not about to change. Opine all you want but guess what next year will bring.........  

Higher prices?