slmskrs

@Windsurfnut It's my understanding that the 'big' difference to the TSC1 and TSC2 is the slalom/trick gate (although I don't swear that's when it came out-maybe TSC3?). The difference between the two are that the pre-gate hull was designed for slalom with a divot behind the rudder. With the gate, the same divot is still there, but the back, rather than in the fiberglass, changed to the gate plate. But I digress. ;) Zbox will never be the same pull as ZO, but it gets it a lot closer. I occasionally pull a MM (39 off) skier behind my boat, and with Zbox, he says my PP boat is the closest to ZO that he has skied (and I'm still working on tweaks). I think the vast majority of skiers are not really going to notice the difference (more a mind-thing), but if you pull high end skiers that are usually on ZO boats, Zbox is a good addition.

V9 settles engine speed much faster than 8.x. For short setups, v9 is worth it just for that. I pinged PP this week about baselines, etc. and learned the following FYI: "The GPS will start making adjustments to the speed (temporary baseline) to compensate for errors in the baseline after approximately 4 seconds. So this doesn't actually change the saved baseline it simply adjusts the number temporary to reach approximately 0.3 kph above the baseline (which is) the speed which it holds outside the course." So, the earlier you engage the better. I'm hoping to do some major tweaking this weekend based on the data from this thread. Will report results ('97 196 GT40).

What version SW?

Just double checked. When I'm in Autocalc, you cannot select any of the speeds and display the set baseline RPM. There's got to be something somewhere. If no-one has any ideas, I'll ping PP.

@Windsurfnut I was in autocalc; it showed all the speeds that had been auto-calculated (all of them), but I couldn't find a way to get to any of them (up and down arrows just changed the speed). I'll take a look again this evening.

Thanks @skiboyny I definetely need smooth skiers. There's one skier in our club that regularly runs 35 and he's one of the smoothest and symetrical skiers I've seen (other than last year when I was in the boat watching Nate Smith run a 41 smoother than most of us run a 22... ;) While this member just sold his '17 MC w/ZO and took delivery of a new '21 MC, he's not a ZO snob and is happy to ski behind my boat (he says me wakes are non-existent). I'm gong to enlist him! :) @Windsurfnut or anyone else, where can I find my current baseline RPMs? I looked through the 9.2 manual and spent 20+ minutes going through all the menus I could find, but I can't find it. I won't be able to get averages and tweak baselines until I can find them. Thanks.

@skiboyny Thanks for the suggestion to turn off zbox when I redo baselines again. I hadn’t thought of that. @DanE, Thanks for the correction on the Ball 3 setting impacting ball 4 (9.80), rather than 3 ball (7.13). I wish I could blame my downhill slide of poor skiing the past few years on a slow 2 ball (4.48) followed by a hot 3 and 4 ball (my S curve), but I’m skiing the same behind ZO as well. I’m sure it has more to do with extra pounds plus age than SG. @DanE Excellent explanation regarding a slow 1 and nominal 2 with fast 3 time. Makes sense that if you have a 1.80 followed by a 4.45, your 3 ball is probably going to be fast. Unfortunately, four weeks ago I tried to run a 32 again and out of one it felt like I tore a shoulder blade muscle. I just grabbed a ride this morning after four weeks off. I ran my opener 22, but could feel it's not healed yet so went right back to the dock. It’s supposed to rain tomorrow, so I think am going to message club members that next Saturday I'll offer free rides to all 34.2 skiers as long as they let me capture data and tweak after every pass. :) So, the plan is the following: 1. Turn off zbox and redo baselines (34, 32 I’ll worry about other speeds later) with crew weight added in. Run several and get average-thanks @windsurfnut 2. Background settings at 25 30 30 (although the focus will be on One ball setting (for my 4.45 time) 3. Adjust crew to dial in 1.77 (no more than +/- .01 with skier in tow) rather than hot 4. Adjust One ball setting to get my 4.45 close to actual instead of slow 5. Then work on 3 ball followed by ROC settings Wish I didn’t have to wait another week, but hopefully my shoulder blade muscles will be feeling better and I can ski a whole set without injuring it further…. Hope everyone is having a great ski weekend!

@Windsurfnut On your comment about not getting zbox settings right (make it sound like ZO then it's too harsh). Maybe that's because all the ZO boats (more recent) are huge ocean-going heavy tugs that have to throttle up much more (lots more wetted surface, etc.). Our 196's are like sports cars but with similar power, so don't get pulled down as much as the current MCs and 200s. My boat with my GT40 will pull someone up much faster than these 6 liter behemoths. A theory anyway.. On Autocalc, I did it once with just me in the boat, and then again with a 2nd, and the one with the 2nd had slightly lower RPMs than by myself; I'm sure due to the imbalance of one person. But I still don't understand why PP is telling me the Ball 1 setting is to correct my 1.77 from being too hot when most folks on this thread (and my test results) say it doesn't impact my 1.77, but my 4.45.

@Windsurfnut Going into a meeting so will respond later. But here's what I got from PP (which makes no sense at all based on what we understand): "Start by reducing the BALL 1 setting. That affects the time coming into 'BALL 0'. Don't touch the BALL3 setting at this point at all. You can adjust the baseline a bit if you want, but if you have a long enough run in to the course the system will dial it back in automatically based on the GPS speed."

Folks, I just found this thread and I want to say THANKS to everyone that has contributed (@windsurfnut @DanE @skiboyny etc.). Great discussion and information. In particular, thanks to @Windsurfnut for putting the google spreadsheet in. I have NOT put in any data because I'm still struggling with my times (been tweaking for over two years since I picked up my '97 project boat and immediate put a complete new SG with xBox system in (SG in my '96, but xBox in the '97 was new for me). Unlike some of you, I have NOT had good support from PP. Twice I've asked for help and when I've send my times (different people at different times), they just say (and I quote)".. the times really don't look that bad", and "your times are within tolerance"..... (I have no idea how they can say the inverted S curve times are not bad when I send them multiple charts like the ones below). Based on what I've read here, this is my understanding now (completely different than what the manual makes you think): * One Ball time (0 on screen) is affected by baselines and crew weight (ex: 1.77). It is NOT adjusted by the Ball 1 Setting. * Two Ball time (1 on screen) is adjusted by the Ball 1 setting (ex: 4.45) * Three Ball time (2 on screen) is adjusted by the Ball 3 settings (ex: 7.13) * The system adjusts at each ball based on previous segment, if previous is hot, then it slows down and visa versa (question: is it adjusting only at each ball, or continuously?) * In order to dial in all times, you must start from the beginning and going through each ball and setting in order (first dial in baseline/crew for one ball (screen ball 0) (1.77), then two ball (screen ball 1) with the Ball one setting, etc.). If the previous ball time is off, then it tries to correct which impacts the next ball. * When setting baselines, if you do not put in crew weight when calibrating (the PP manual suggests leaving at 0 with two crew), then the actual crew weight is factored into the baseline RPM. When subsequently pulling a skier, crew weight should be set at zero so you don't add anything on top of the crew weight that is already factored into the baseline. However, because ball one (0 on screen, ex. 1.77) time is based on baselines/crew weight, if your time is hot (ex: 1.74 instead of 1.77 actual), you can't subtract crew weight to drop the RPMs to dial in 1.77 because crew weight was factored into the baseline RPM so your current crew weight setting is zero (and you can't go negative). Therefore, it is better to calculate baselines with crew weight entered. Then enter actual crew weight when pulling a skier and you can now subtract to slow down to dial in one ball (0 on screen) times. Based on all of this (and assuming the above understanding is correct), then I understand why I have always had an inverted S curve, even when substantially changing settings (before understanding the above). My 1.77 has always been hot (baseline issue), and all of my adjustments were for the wrong balls (I thought the ball 1 setting affected my 1.77. not my 4.45), etc., so I have just been making each segment worse. The below images have been my typical inverted S curve pattern prior to understanding the above (Note: I saw the same pattern with default settings, so ignore the fact that in the below examples my ball 1 in the below settings is even lower than default--I now know it affects my 4.45 time, not 1.77): Settings: Based on feedback and comparisons to pulls from Zo from a MM skier in our club (into 39), I recently adjusted by xbox and ABC settings, and well as some additional tweaks, and got this: Settings: So, the below is what I think I have to do based on all of the above: * Recalibrate baselines with crew weight in so have +/- adjustment ability (or possibly drop 50-70 RPM off of current baselines) * Increase 1 ball setting (for two ball time) up to between 20 and 45. * Drop 3 ball setting (for three ball time) from 60 to around 30 (will depend on results of above) * Change rest of course to around 30 (will depend on results of above) I'd be very interested to hear opinions on my logic as well as suggested settings based on my previous results. '97 196 bubble butt, PCM GT40 MPI 9.1 PP SG w/zbox (2019) Supplemental throttle return springs I'm also thinking of getting a shorter cable and finding a way to mount the server motor directly forward of the throttle linkage so the cable doesn't bend and is shorter for less play. One question on baselines: Back in the old classic days, I used to remember what change in RPM equaled .01 but I can't recall now. Was it 5RPM, or was it 10RPM? It would be very helpful to tweak baseline RPMs to get it very close, and then do slight tweaks to crew weight. BTW, is it me, or does it seem strange that with GPS, PP wants crew weight? I have to assume that requirement was due to the ZO lawsuit. It should be sampling speed and RPM when engaged and adjust accordingly, rather than just stick to a baseline like classic until you go through the gates. Thanks in advance, Gordon

Thanks Todd. Just sent it.

Going to be in Austin Sunday afternoon and was wondering if someone might be out on a course and like a 3rd... :) Thanks in advance, Gordon

Oh, and I have yet to have my fuel filter in the FCC get plugged up; every time I've opened it to replace it, it looks clean (replace it anyway). I've had the screen mesh in the top of the tank get plugged up, a pin hole in the hose that the HP pump connects to in the FCC, and my LP pump get weak and need replacing. Others have seen the fuel pump relay go out. If you post on correctcraftfan.com, make sure you list as many symptoms, conditions when it happens, what you've checked so far, etc. Any difference with speed (slower, WOT, etc.)? When it cuts out, does it sputter or just die cold turkey (like turning off the key)? When it won't start, how long before it does?.....etc....

Post this on www.correctcraftfan.com in the engine repair of the forums section. Lots of CC specific help (especially for those of us with GT40 engines. Could be the fuel relay, the HP or LP pump, or any number of electrical items.

Yup, "The pond" was like that this morning and forecast to be the same tomorrow..... sigh But if you can ski at the pond, you can ski almost anywhere... ;-)

Looking at the back of the boat is a good tip; this keeps your head/shoulders more level. You should feel equal pull from both arms, not your outside (leading) arm loaded and your inside (trailing) arm not doing much. Looking at the boat (and feeling the pull in both arms) also helps to move your hips forward toward the handle, putting you more centered over the ski, which gets you more angle and direction with less effort. If you do this, you'll be wide and early for the next buoy (turn); then you won't need to shift your gaze slightly from the back of the boat to the next ball until you are well past the second wake.

I'm going to be in Austin August 8 on business and was wondering if there is a chance to buy a ride on the 8th. If anyone skis there or has contacts there, please let me know. Thanks, Gordon www.sccwsc.org