Deep11

18m is best but same problems for all lines:

You are getting caught at the gate and then fighting every load/acceleration phase across the wake. Any other problems are because of this. You clearly know what do and have the skills to go up the rope quickly if you fixit.

My advice ( before Horton says it) get your alignment (stack) sorted and then learn how to trust that position and let the boat accelerate you wide and early.

There are loads of threads on here about just this, if you are a " visual" learner then keep videoing as you make changes and compare to this video and videos of the pros.

If you freeze frame at the point of boat contact ( just before the white water ) you will see that at every point you are slightly broken at the waist, have already lost connection with the handle and have bent arms trying to resist the boat. This becomes more obvious as you shorten the line.

Whether you are skiing 18 or 11.25 the alignment needs to be the same.

First thing is to be able to actually feel what it's like so do the Gordon Rathbun drill of shortening to 11 and pulling out along as far up on the boat on both sides working on getting the right position and feeling it. Much easier with a coach but if not video it and compare to the pros or post here again. ( little tweaks in position make all the difference).

Then you can work on the gate and figure out how to get in this position at the right time for everything to come together - which with your skiing really shouldn't take you long :)

Keeping it fun but stopping bad habits early - from the off I taught my kids to turn with their hips rather than lean or shoulders. Think it's paying dividends now :

My son is a reluctant skier, only skiing a few sets a year due to school and other commitments,he has been skiing two handed throughout but this is a photo from the first pass he tried letting go with one hand. ( wish I looked as good as this).

Wish I could get him to ski some more - there is potential there I think.

 

 

@Ed_johnson and @ToddL I think we are on the same page. (Don't know if it's the right one, but definitely the same one).

@Chef23 I posted the video of Seth not for beginners to try and emulate but because it shows really well the efficient work zone at a slower speed. (Also when talking to Seth some of what I am asking becomes a little clearer in that he says it is the hand he collects the handle with which drives the acceleration of the ski (Trailing arm).)

 

It is clear that the shortest most efficient work zone for all pros is after their on side turn. What I have been told is that to have any chance of injecting power into the mix we should be trying to finish this turn with shoulders facing down course (I think TW mentioned this recently as well). I don't think, for me anyway, it's as simple as just dropping the hip - far too easy for it to fallback, which means finishing the turn with hips and shoulders rotated in the direction of travel. Which like Todd mentioned means stacking in line with the pylon from wide, which limits your, angle, acceleration and achieves a long load zone.

 

Without others chipping in on the "how to" yet, I'll let you know where I am with this. I am thinking that the only way of finishing the onside turn keeping shoulders facing down course is for their to be a degree of "disconnect" between upper body and hips and legs.

 

This is probably Ed's CoM and reverse C stuff, but I'll explain my thoughts:

 

If you are a stacked straight line on top of your ski and simply lean over to turn, you can stay stacked, but rely on centrifugal force to stop falling over. The turn is a carved slow and possibly graceful affair but if the timings off or you fall back on the ski at the end it's all over. This is turning using the upper body which I think is a bad habit.

Alternatively if you are tall and stacked over the top of the ski after the edge change and instead of leaning over to carve a turn, you instead try and keep your body upright and let the ski continue to move out - lower body disconnects. Then when the ski comes back in you have the opportunity to carve a tighter radius turn without falling away from the boat. You also can connect later with the trailing arm and hopefully (this is where I came in) inject some pace into your cross course direction. The Classic stacked position that we all talk about is still there just for a much shorter period of time. It's a position you accelerate through (from the boat perspective as Todd mentioned), rather than assume and hold.

What I'm finding really difficult is to keep my shoulders and hips facing down course whilst the ski comes round. I think I'm still quite flexible but this is tough, I'm hoping it's just getting used to the different view of the course and trusting that "everything will alright on the other side".

Keeping the body as upright as possible though is definitely a good thing.

 

Hi @horton, thanks for taking the time to reply and posting that video of Nate (I missed that one somehow).

I think we are on the same track - just different words.

To be clear, I totally agree about wanting to be aligned at all times. When I said the stack "wasn't perfect" I meant the point at which you are not quite in line with the pylon yet. (But still stacked / aligned over the ski)

It is the "short efficient load" I am seeking. My mistake was saying it was an early load, it isn't compared to the "turn and burn" off the bouy. It is however as you say all over very quickly with a huge amount of acceleration generated.

 

Carrying speed through the turn and the "glide" you mention, before the load, I think are important, (these guys don't drop into the turns or simply carve graceful turns they speed through them purposefully shortening the radius).

There is I hope more to it. When you mention that Nate is in the best position to get "all his work done over a short distance" - this is what I am getting at. Getting to the right point with right amount of speed is crucial but then what - what is the work he is doing?

Is it just a matter of falling away - really quickly, I don't think that will do it. Even if it was this you would have to be a bit more upright in order to have somewhere to fall to (which is probably a factor). In what ways are these guys inputting the energy to make the transition faster and more efficient? Do you think that this a "coached" action or the result of "just doing it for a long time"?

This is a video of Seth at 30mph showing the exact same thing - really efficient short load before the first wake. As you pointed out, he too is gliding to the point of contact but then power is injected.

He also talks about "getting the ski out from under him" in some other videos.

 

 

The handle collection (skiing to the handle rather than pulling in) and load are also very separate points.

 

The video of MB perhaps shows this quite well, the load from 4-5 looks like he falls away a bit too much, exaggerating what I am talking about, but when he picks up the boat he accelerates the ski from behind to in front really emphasising the "work".

 

 

If you stack off the bouy or even after the turn this does not happen. The video of MB mentions trailing arm again which is probably another factor. If you lean into your front shoulder the ski will be locked under you = longer load.

 

Interesting stuff and I hope we keep this conversation going as it's fun to have ideas to work with on the water, I really don't like simply going out skiing :)

 

Kevin

 

 

Acceleration

 

If you are still working out how to align and stack correctly then you should probably look away now.

 

There are many ways to run the course and most of the guys on here are in the "lock and load" category. I have been doing this for a few years (largely to perfect my stack) and it is (as it should be) a default position when things go wrong. I can run 14 and 13 all day long this way. 12 works as well, but less so, and then a few at 11.

At this time of the season I am setting goals and happy to deconstruct in order to ultimately move on.

This year I want to learn to accelerate properly, or at least see if I can.

 

Explanation: If you turn the ball and hook up in perfect alignment (stack), all acceleration will now come from the boat and any additional "lean" you put in (which you probably shouldn't as this increases drag also). In other words you can't introduce any additional acceleration. With this approach characteristically the "load" is applied into and through both wakes with a later edge change.

 

To be clear this is a great way to ski I just want to see if I can do it another way.

 

 

The alternative is when the boat starts to pull, you are NOT in your perfect stack position (in relation to the boat and pylon) but in a place that allows you to accelerate the ski under the rope (and ultimately behind the handle). The stack comes during this process, at just the right moment. As a result skiing this way the load comes on really early and the edge change is happening from before the first wake.

 

What I would like to know, from those who ski this way, is if they have any tips on how to get there, the "feel" they are looking for and any "visual" clues/goals (such as looking to shore/down the bouy line etc).

 

The skiers that I see really showing this are:

Nate, Seth, CP, Marcus Brown, TW

 

I realise that this may be quite an advanced topic, but don't think I qualify to post there just yet :(

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

Winter must be over - more theory posts - love it, thanks @wish !

 

Re: the injection of energy needed, increasing the "weight" on the end of the line will certainly increase the energy if applied at the correct moment - seems to me that from this discussion and the video, the correct point would ideally be as the down swing starts, and anywhere from the midline on is counter productive.

The realistic optimum then is actually further out than most skiers are currently working on?

@Ski6jones - thanks, I hope it's the camera angle, but will check width next time.

@luzz - great idea, the more I can get on automatic before everything starts to happen the better. Will work on it.

Thanks for the advice people. I know it's early in the season but as there isn't much theory discussion going on I'm happy to post my gate efforts from today.

Went for "glide with an edge" approach - feels a bit like an "s" turn in.

Frankly it still feels alien to last year. Important part is that I was wide and early at 1 and managed a few easy 32's which makes me happy.

Comparing these gates to previous I can see that the rope is still touching the wake tower when I am starting to accelerate. Previously this was not the case, so clearly wider and better angle which is good.

Critiquing myself I would say that whilst I managed to keep the line tight and the timing was definitely better (making the gates and no hits) there is much room for improvement - re: horton - I need to be turning in on the front foot (thought i was but clearly not - that's why I video everything). My stack is also not what it should be making for a lazy edge change.

Anyone else see anything I should be working on.

Still damn cold here - but that's no excuse for poor technique. :)

 

 

 

@bry thank you so much for such a comprehensive answer!

Makes perfect sense - I was thinking about the ski edge and that the flat ski was the problem. Looked back at TW video and yes he does keep the outside edge engaged (watching the spray) until just before the slow turn in.

I have a couple of sets in about an hour so will work on this.

Thanks again :)

 

Right foot forward

Hi,

I have been using the one handed gate with good success. I reckon I can get wider though, which should be a big help at 12m and below.

I have been looking at Ski Dawg's video as well as TW as they get really wide before the turn, their approach seems to involve a "glide" before the turn in. (As opposed to Rossi or Jason Mc)

Does anyone have any tips or opinions on this as the timing seems really critical. What I have been finding is that once on the glide (flat ski) it's really difficult to control the "turn in" and also really hard to maintain a tight line

Note: I'm still working on the idea that with the one handed gate I am turning in with speed rather than dropping back on the line (like a two handed gate) - I'm taking hits that I really don't want this early in the season!

Alternatively I may move back to switching edge immediately and avoiding a flat ski glide. In which case any tips to getting wider? Is it necessary ?

 

To glide or not to glide?

 

Thanks

@mwetskier - totally agree, I wasnt trying to reference the Rossi article but really making the point (I accept badly) that when you connect you shouldn't forget about the inside hip. The further the inside hip is back - away from the boat and handle - the more potential for overturn and drag there is. (I don't think I could get my inside hip anywhere near the handle without the outside hip being connected)

Yup that'll work too - bit more "snappy" than mine :)

Thanks guys, you are probably right and I am quite prepared to have misunderstood what is going on. Before I put it bed however there is a chance I'm just not describing my thoughts terribly well.

What I know is that : Over rotating at the end of the turn - if you can hang onto it - causes disconnect between the handle and the hips, loss of direction and a "save" by getting on the back of the ski - certainly no dynamic edge change - On the other hand having the hips more open at the point of connection reduces the load felt and allows a more forward lean and acceleration. Giving you a chance to "drive" into the wakes.

My point was that if you think about connecting the inside hip (more open) just at the point of catching the handle, you are more on the front foot and you will reduce the hit of the rope tightening and have the opportunity for everything else to take place.

 

Finishing the turn into the perfect stack and connection should be the goal but happens all too infrequently. So how do you explain to someone how to achieve the start point of the stack (finish of the turn)?

(To even think about this we have to assume that the skier gets there in good shape and the right speed.)

 

Unfortunate whilst I've heard many skiers being advised to "delay taking the handle" or "let the ski finish the turn" I rarely see it having the effect they are trying to achieve.

 

@toddl - I agree, what I am talking about is there at every pass 13m - 10.25m, it's easier to see as definite movement at the shorter passes - again, if no one out there thinks like this I'm clearly obsessing too much - pass my beer :)

 

Note: I too spend an increasing amount of time in a coaching role, so getting the words and thoughts right is really helpful - thanks to BOS for helping get my head straight.

Weird ! - your 4th paragraph is what I have just raised in another thread. Hadn't seen this one, sorry.

- My point was that im looking at it not as a delay of getting the hand back on, but rather making sure that as the hand comes on you rotate the inside hip and connect hips to handle at the same time? Kind of "collecting the inside hip with your handle connection" BEFORE taking direction and accelerating.

- Again difficult to understand without a handle in your hand - even then not easy :)

- This action also seems to promote the forward COM lean mentioned in another post.

 

Hadn't thought about it as part of the stack before - interesting....

Working through the dynamics of body position through the course I've been looking at the point at which I catch the handle with the free hand. If the goal is to keep the handle "connected" through the acceleration and edge change then it seems that the handle has to be connected initially when I grab the handle. The back of the turn is where a lot of the problems happen for me and watching video it seems that I am not connecting properly at this point.

If not connected immediately and the pull comes on, there is no chance of getting it back.

Looking at the videos of pros (and any confident short line skier) it looks as though there is a definite first action at the completion of the turn - right when the handle is grabbed, and the boat pulls, the inside hip comes up (left hip going from 1 - 2 )effectively connecting the hips to the handle ( "power triangle" style). Once connected the acceleration and "driving the ski through" takes place.

It is really easy to see this on the "on side" for pretty much everyone, slightly less obvious on the offside, but it is there.

 

Note: I am not referring to "skiing open or west coasty" style, this is purely right at the point of grabbing the handle and the boat gives the first pull - after that comes all the technique points raised in "light on the line" and "edge change" discussions.

 

Often you see the direction of the ski change - towards the boat slightly- while the hip is raised and connected to the handle, then direction is regained and acceleration comes on.

Now given the "magic words" aspect of this sport and the regular misinterpretation of what we see pros do on videos I am quite prepared to accept that I am spending far to much time watching videos and not enough time actually skiing. Would any of you short line guys confirm (or otherwise) whether this is an important aspect of finishing the turn or if I should stop thinking about skiing and concentrate on my needlework until the weather gets better.

 

 

Many thanks.....

 

Kevin

Ok so who's going to try this first and post the video ?

 

http://www.capereamol.com

 

If you really really want to get it then :smile:

Don't forget to video everything you do - have a plan for each set, write notes, follow it and analyse the video to see what actually works. It is rare to able to tell whilst skiing what is actually working for you.

- Oh yes - keep out the course until you can totally nail the stack. Just my lowly opinion :)

 

After some very changeable weather and a frozen loch (lake) over the last few weeks Skied yesterday for the first time in 3 weeks and the first time this year.

Temperature = 1deg C (air and water) = baller index of -54.

 

Loch frozen over today :(

 

Note: oneil pyrotech suit (chest zip and sealed seams), radar Strada boots with hot water, neoprene beanie and 2mm neoprene gloves (with Kevlar palms/ customised prolocks over the top and kids width handle) = can manage the cold like a spring day :)

 

 

Hey @Chef23‌ totally agree - I raised this on a thread a while back and called it the "sweet spot" (double entendre with "another sweet spot was on purpose :) )

I'm not allowed in the advanced topics thread (yet ) but thought I'd have a stab at this anyway.

This year I've been working on creating as much speed as I can in whatever way possible - lean / pull whatever - the result is that As my technique improves I am working harder than I ever have into the wakes and the drivers are noticing me less. Far fewer hits and my bouy count has gone up (gained 4 to 5@11 this season ) with my consistency at 32 ....

- So :smile: -

- Light on the line = as little "drag" as possible.

you can lean as hard as you like just make sure that it's a lean that creates acceleration and speed NOT one that imparts more drag. In fact perhaps that's the goal at 12 and below - to achieve as much leverage as efficiently as possible?

 

@horton - funny funny funny, made trawling through this thread worthwhile - great punchline!

- Think I smeared myself.

This thread needs archiving somewhere special - to pulled out and read again and again and.......

Thanks, funny how some people misinterpret information.

I hear lots of people giving advice to skiers to soften their knees through the transition and in some cases, lift the knees. TW is often used as an example of this.

Is this really what is happening ?

I would have thought that having resisted at the point of maximum load (somewhere between the bouy and 1st wake for arguments sake) that it's actually better to keep as much resistance in the legs (and knees) as possible UNTIL the "x" (schnitz definition) point where the ski transitions under the handle. If you soften before this point the transition and edge change will be slower, as the "energy" of the edge change has been softened as well.

If there is any "knee lift" going on it should probably be off the second wake only?

I see a number of skiers softening on purpose into the first wake and not really completing the edge change until half way to the next bouy, which pulls them up narrow and fast.

Any of you guys able to clarify this?

Thanks

Totally agree about the arm pressure once main load is off - it's at the point the line gets tight I lost you: no way either of my scrawny arms can pull itself in to create the effect you were pointing out. What works for me is, through the transition, giving a little movement of turning chest and hips towards the next bouy to advance the ski through and prepare for the turn.

 

This video of JB is great to see just how straight your arms can be through the course.