Preventing the Overturn Syndrome - The Pre-Pull

[35 in the bag]

Continuing the turn beyond the desired direction for the upcoming pull.... Being in a pre-pull position with too much lean away from the boat and with too little speed (momentum) remaining to carry into the pull AND just enough of a slack line to ensure that the 300+ hp boat will pull me into the worst possible pull position (butt back, shoulders forward, ski flat) just so I can survive (keep skiing). I'm talking 38 and shorter here.

That is my dilemma, my nemesis, my incompetence, my frustration, my shoulders and my back.How do I carry the speed........... Somehow I have to abort the turn at precisely the right moment.

A lot of ski in the water makes for an efficient and small radius turn, which I believe is needed (as I study the good skiers) and I can achieve this with consistency. Yet with that much ski in the water, the ski want to continue turning.....beyond the point needed and dumping the precious speed which would have softened the hook up.I am dubbing this point in the slalom process the PRE-PULL.

Many of the good skiers have it down pat.... and for me I think it is the key too the next level of my skiing competence.

So what are some characteristics of it?

1. Commonly the ski tip rises.    But not too much.
2. The ski seems to be advancing forward relative to the hips and or shoulders... but the skier is not "falling" back.....   their momentum continues in the direction of the upcoming pull....
3. The Skier is not leaning "too" far away from the boat, or conversely stated, is not leaning 'too' low to the water.
4. The strongest possible position is obtained as the rope begins to load. Shoulders open and back, hips and handle very close to each other, knees moderately bent, proper ski edge angle (both transversely and longitudinally) relative to the water.

Now we're in the pull which has its own dynamics for another discussion.  Except that I believe that in short line slalom it's all about an effective pull.......then the pre turn...then the turn..... ah forget it... slalom need everything.... just most importantly the pull because without that you can't do anything else.  And that’s what the pre-pull must set the skier up for... an effective pull.

How to do this?

This year I have evolved into a late pre-turn/turn which drops my hips toward the water to execute the turn. The idea being that I achieve a small radius turn without my shoulders/torso being 'too' low to the water for the pull (I used to commonly slam dunk the on side). Learning this I have "high-sided" a few times. These falls are pretty harmless though. Especially when compared to blowing the tail and tweeking a front ankle.

The problem is that I'm getting too much tip rise at the end of the turn which is sometimes combined with a simultaneous rotating of the ski down coarse and flattening of the ski..........which all has to be undone to set the ski on edge for the pull.  Just way too much going on there! It’s ugly when that happens. It looks uncouth... but most importantly it’s inefficient, wasting momentum and can't be consistently applied. If you can't visualize what I'm trying to describe, then dig up the video of Parrish's 1 ball when he set his record.

So how do I end the turn radius exactly where I 'need' to?

 

[skiep]

Sounds like your front binding is too far forward! Basicly too much tip down and that water pressure needs to be relieved resulting in a bit of a wheelie. Then somtimes it stays down not finishing the turn resulting in strightlining to the next buoy! Hope this helps Keith Albritton

[35 in the bag]

When Eddie and Andy set up the ski for me to demo last year, the first set it was grabbing/stopping on the off side and I bit it hard on four ball @ 38. We went to shore, moved the front boot back a notch and I went out and ran 38 for only the second time in my life. It can only go back one more hole......I'll check my notes....but I seem to remember that sometime after I got home I tried it back all the way.........and it was a failed experiment. Might be worth a try again though.  Vitals 190, 6', 68" MPD fin at Andy's settings.....ah, on my calipers...... 6.895 tips, 2.5165, .790, 8.5 deg holes toward the ski, 2004 Connelly Vision Pivot (rear lace, and toe clamp) on a HO plate one hole back of neutral, HO RTP all the way back but with toes touching the front bindings horse shoe.

John

[Old MS Accout]

The problem is that I'm getting too much tip rise at the end of the turn which is sometimes combined with a simultaneous rotating of the ski down coarse and flattening of the ski.....

John,

When I see this with people skiing on Monzas, I just take about 5 thou off the DFT and put them back in the water. 98% of the time it went away. Try moving back in small movements, take a pass and see what happens. Keep going back on DFT until it is gone. I bet it works for you. 

P.S.

I did not see your tip up when you tore it up under the lights the other night. Good skiing.     

[ktm300]

John, I am on a 67" 6' 0" 180.  This year regularly run 35.  Never in my life run a legit 38.  Chet helped setup my ski.

Front 28 5/8

Rear 17 my feet are really close together

6.80 ish tips

2.475

.720 ish Goode method

 Back gave it easy width, shallow let it turn and short took out the tip bite.  Mine still isn't dialed to my liking but, it is close.  I used these numbers with both the gold fin and the HO fin.  The HO made for smoother finishes.  

Don't hesitate to move the fin back.  It will stop the over rotation.

 Not sure yet but I think I will move the front boot up an 1/8 at a time and see how it feels.  The tracking out of my offside feels like it is more fin than ski if that makes any sense to you.

Rini is setting up most at 2.480.

For 55k shallower makes sense to me as the ski is riding deeper than 58.  Back makes sense as the last 5 feet of width seems to be the struggle with 55k. 

This ski is therapeutic.   If I rotate in with my shoulders it provides enough negative reinforcement to seriously discourage it.  Conversely, if I stay open the reward is really good.

One last thing that I have recently learned.  Being toe in on the front boot can contribute to tip rise offside.  Jamie skis toe in.  Don't know why yet.  Most ski a bit toe out. 

[35 in the bag]

Need a little more help,

 

OK, I’m getting close. But please weight in as to your suggestions.

 

With the adjustments made this week the ski has settled into Formula One mode. BUT....

 

I blew the tail when pressing it off side @ 38 2 ball after a weak one.......coming in hot and shallow needing a “good†hard turn.

 

Obviously the front of the ski over powering the back.......though it didn’t bite on me (no breaking at the waist).

 

All other characteristics of the ski seem like they’re worth working with for a while... I think... not quite as consistent as I would have liked.... but I’m pretty sure that’s me as I’m really triing to put counter rotation and dropping the hips to the ball into the style right now. Sometimes I remember and things are sweet....sometime my muscles remember (the old way).....any whoooo.

 

My thought on correction......by reverse elimination is:

Length – don’t change it .....the ski is not biting.....after reducing length I needed to move the front binding forward 3/16†to bring it to life.

 

Depth – (the obvious answer) – don’t change it because deepening will have the side effect of tip rise at the end of the turn....which is what I just tuned out of it.

 

DFT – I don’t think moving the fin back will hold the tail down except by reducing the rate of turn which I don’t want to change at this point.  (why put snow tires on my sports car?) But then again, maybe a small change here is all it will take.

 

Wing----- ah....that might be it... 8.5 right now (Andy’s setting).  9 just might hold the tail down when pressed...... Side effects expected; more tip....the ski might increase or renew its tendency to bite. ... hopefully not. Maybe less width... generally not a problem for me. If anything I attempt 38 skiing it too wide....subconsciously trying to develop the same visual cues in the pre-turn as at the longer lengths (I’m trying to condition my self away from that...so I don’t make it harder (wider) than it really is).

 

For what its worth...the ski is still seeking (hunting) a bit when I settle at the end of the lake.......no hint of it in the pre-gate glide though.

 

Whatchallthink?

 

p.s. After my fin adjustments, the skis’ turn rate was significantly too slow...I couldn’t comfortably ski with it there.  So I move my front binding forward about a ½ hole (3/16†+)  and it brought a ripping beast to life (old HO plate with slide slots at the four corners and holes at the center....skiing w/o screws in the center holes for the moment).

 

John Miller

 

[35 in the bag]

Sorry,

I don't know why the spacing is so great.....drafted in WORD, copied here and looked fine before I pressed "Add Your Comments".

[rryker]

John, I really think I would stick with what you had when Andy set up your ski and you ran your 38, you are going to be back in simaliar water and it worked the first time.

Best of luck at natty's

[35 in the bag]

Randy, 

Point so well taken cause I hadn't overtly thought about that for a while. Especially the being in the same water again.

 Except that I know I’ve always got those numbers.. I ended the year not skiing "well". And I started this year very disciplined,…(read slow---- carefully getting into shape). So it’s only recently that I’ve been skiing hard enough to discern and therefore play with anything. 

I really hope all is well with you and yours.

John